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frouella wrote:

No, people shouldn't be over-protective, but at the same time, people shouldn't be hyper-critical just because something is popular.

There's a difference between hyper-critical (complaining) and hyper-analytical. Because this show is such a huge otaku social phenomenon, it makes for very interesting dissection. Does it bother you when people dissect a show?

frouella wrote:

No, not every single element in the show is revolutionary or new, but there's enough skill and novelty in how the show is put together to more than make up for that.

I would go further and say that NO element of the show is revolutionary or new. Apart from the *slightly* original out-of-order gimmick, this show does nothing that hasn't been done by a hundred show before. BUT... it does that un-original stuff better than any show before. And this is no small accomplishment. Overall this production is just amazingly solid in all aspects. Like previous posters have said, there is basically *nothing* to complain about. All elements of the show are high-quality and well meshed.

I think there are basically 2 way to create a great anime (or anything, for that matter); either make something that no one has ever done before, or make something better than anyone has done before. I have more respect for the first way, but SHnY is definitely a masterpiece in the second way.

dormcat wrote:

frouella wrote:

You know, there's an ancient Chinese curse that goes something like, "May you live in interesting times."

Enlighten me please. Cool

Um, that's the whole curse. It just means that interesting times are nice to read or hear about, but you wouldn't necessarily want to be a part of them or live through them. For example, Mao's cultural revolution, Japan's Meiji era, the settling of the American frontier, WWII, even the Renaissance. They all sound interesting and exciting, but too much change too quickly can cause suffering even while being beneficial.

frouella wrote:

Um, that's the whole curse. It just means that interesting times are nice to read or hear about, but you wouldn't necessarily want to be a part of them or live through them. For example, Mao's cultural revolution, Japan's Meiji era, the settling of the American frontier, WWII, even the Renaissance. They all sound interesting and exciting, but too much change too quickly can cause suffering even while being beneficial.

Or another way to put it:
An adventure is when something dangerous, exciting, and unique happens to someone else in far away place.

Last edited by selenta on Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

abunai wrote:

But rating an anime, especially one that has garnered a great deal of popularity, is a social action, not a physical phenomen -- it isn't necessarily bound to follow a bell curve in aggregate. On the contrary, opinions are far more likely to be polarized into love-versus-hate. It is more unusual for someone to rate an anime "decent" or "so-so" than it is for them to declare their undying love of or hatred for it.

Human nature is predictable, but not necessarily normally distributed.

For the record: Of course you're right in theory, that's exactly what I said in my previous post if I'm not mistaken. However the actuallity of it is that people DO act in a normalized fashion the majority of the time, out of all the other anime series in the top 10, none of them had more than 2 out of place values from a normal-esque shape, Haruhi has 4 (and a much more smoothed distribution for what very little it's worth). The movies are a little more odd in their distribution, but they aren't really the same type of entertainment and have a much wider audience so it doesn't surprise me. If you want some beautiful bell curves, just check out shows without any huge polarizing tendencies like Chobits, Hunter X Hunter, Azumanga Daioh, Full Metal Panic, Oh My Goddess!, or My-Hime.

In fact, nearly every show on this website follows this pattern, it's nothing more than a pattern. The sad truth is that humans aren't as unpredictable as many would like to believe Confused

My point wasn't particularly deep, I was just trying to point out how I thought It was funny that Haruhi attracted so much attention that people felt the need to spike the ratings. Clearly almost noone out there ACTUALLY feels it deserves a 1, maybe a 5 or something, but they rate it a 1 just as an attempt to bring down the average.

EDIT: ooo, that Oh My Goddess! one is nice Wink

Just caught myself staring at it for like 3-4 minutes and seeing if I could guess the standard deviation in my head Embarassed

Dan42 wrote:

There's a difference between hyper-critical (complaining) and hyper-analytical. Because this show is such a huge otaku social phenomenon, it makes for very interesting dissection. Does it bother you when people dissect a show?

Bother me, no. But it does tend to get a bit excessive after a while. And eventually it makes me think that too much dissection makes people miss the point. It's like saying, "Hmm, stuffed teddy bears have been really popular for years. I wonder why? They all look like bears; no real innovation there. They're all made of fabric, they all have some kind of stuffing. Let's dissect one to figure out why people love them so much!" At which point the poor bear is strapped to a table, sliced open, poked and prodded and studied and generally torn apart beyond all recognition -- and even with all of this concentrated study, no one can actually point to a particular part and say, "Aha! THIS piece is responsible for centuries of teddy bear love!" And the end result is the destruction of the very thing that brought about the love in the first place.

So, sorry about the long-winded explanation, but that's what I have a problem with.

Last edited by frentymon on Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

selenta wrote:

Clearly almost noone out there ACTUALLY feels it deserves a 1, maybe a 5 or something, but they rate it a 1 just as an attempt to bring down the average.

Out of the people who rated the show "Worst Ever", I don't think all of them are just trolling (although many probably are). I think that hype/buzz partially contributes to extreme opinions; if someone watches a series and felt that it has not lived up to all the hype/buzz, it might cause them to rate a series unnecessarily harshly. People who are bitterly disappointed about something tend to react in extreme ways (if a kid does not get something he was hoping for, he might say something along the lines of, "My life sucks! Everyone else has it better than I do!").

On another note, anyone else following Higurashi no Naku Koro ni? I don't actually know why Haruhi gets so much more attention than Higurashi; IMO they are equally creative, entertaining, and brilliant.

Dan42 wrote:

Or another way to put it:
An adventure is when something dangerous, exciting, and unique happens to someone else in far away place.

Yeah, that's definitely a more succinct way to put it! Laughing

Dan42 wrote:

frouella wrote:

No, people shouldn't be over-protective, but at the same time, people shouldn't be hyper-critical just because something is popular.

There's a difference between hyper-critical (complaining) and hyper-analytical. Because this show is such a huge otaku social phenomenon, it makes for very interesting dissection. Does it bother you when people dissect a show?

frouella wrote:

No, not every single element in the show is revolutionary or new, but there's enough skill and novelty in how the show is put together to more than make up for that.

I would go further and say that NO element of the show is revolutionary or new. Apart from the *slightly* original out-of-order gimmick, this show does nothing that hasn't been done by a hundred show before. BUT... it does that un-original stuff better than any show before. And this is no small accomplishment. Overall this production is just amazingly solid in all aspects. Like previous posters have said, there is basically *nothing* to complain about. All elements of the show are high-quality and well meshed.

I think there are basically 2 way to create a great anime (or anything, for that matter); either make something that no one has ever done before, or make something better than anyone has done before. I have more respect for the first way, but SHnY is definitely a masterpiece in the second way.

I'll agree that most of SHnY isn't brand new. I don't have a problem with that either; most everything we see in anime, or other forms of popular entertainment, is old ideas recycled and repackaged. SHnY merely uses the old plots, character types, etc. in interesting ways. I think we can mostly agree on that point.

But I do think there are two things that SHnY has contributed to anime that you're overlooking. The student-film parody of the first episode was new to me (in anime). They demonstrated exceptional skill in one medium (animation) to simulate the lack of skill in another medium (live-action). Perhaps other anime has done something similar in the past; I can't think of anything, but you certainly know more anime than I do. I still would say KyoAni's work on Episode 1 is a milestone in anime and if or when we see that kind of parody in the future we'll tend to compare it back to SHnY (and nothing else).

Second big contribution is the persistent use of the in-character narrator. I can't think of anyone like Kyon in anime. His role in the plot may be rather formulaic (he's your average self-deluded harem lead). His role as the mediator between the show and the audience is NOT formulaic at all. He's closer to Hamlet in the way he interacts with the audience than anyone I can think in anime. And once again, if we see narrators like this in the future we'll compare them to Kyon and probably no one else.

Here's a question: Scenes in SHnY come in three kinds. There are scenes that Kyon is present to witness, scenes that other people tell Kyon about while we listen in, and scenes that take place entirely without Kyon present or listening. What episodes have the third kind of scene?

frouella wrote:

Dan42 wrote:

Or another way to put it:
An adventure is when something dangerous, exciting, and unique happens to someone else in far away place.

Yeah, that's definitely a more succinct way to put it! Laughing

While both of you had described it quite nicely, I still have a difficult time finding out the Chinese curse you mentioned in its original form. Rolling Eyes

frentymon wrote:

selenta wrote:

Clearly almost noone out there ACTUALLY feels it deserves a 1, maybe a 5 or something, but they rate it a 1 just as an attempt to bring down the average.

Out of the people who rated the show "Worst Ever", I don't think all of them are just trolling (although many probably are).
...
On another note, anyone else following Higurashi no Naku Koro ni? I don't actually know why Haruhi gets so much more attention than Higurashi; IMO they are equally creative, entertaining, and brilliant.

I thought I said that pretty succinctly myself.

I can't say for sure why Higurashi doesn't get more press, but I can make a pretty good guess I think. Higurashi is a horror, Haruhi is a comedy. How many people do you know that don't like to laugh? How many people do you know that don't love to feel as if spiders are crawling through their veins while they sweat so badly from being anxious about the show they're watching that they have to open the window so they stay conscious? I'm willing to bet you know a lot more people from question 2.

I do think higurashi is an awesome show, but it takes serious effort on my part to watch it and I have to be in just the right mindset or it won't sink in right. The difference I think just lies in the type of shows they are, and thus their audience. Haruhi will inherently have a larger audience just based on the genre of the shows. Higurashi DID actually get a lot of press at first, actually more than Haruhi for the first 2-3 episodes if I remember right.

If anyone curious theres a website out there that lists all the anime and TV tropes and archetypes. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ Here we go. I found it interesting although it is in need of more examples. All anime is fairly derivative as are most forms of media, its pretty much impossible to have completely unique characters and plots as storytelling has been around for a very long time. The oldest story known to man I believe is The Epic of Gilgamesh dated at least as far back as 3000 B.C. However the sheer fact that storytelling still exists shows that it will never get old. Homer the Bard would perform his poems over and over and people would never tire of them. A good story can be told countless times and never grow old. I think Suzumiya Haruhi No Yuutsu is even listed on the TV Tropes website, look it up if your curious.

Thanks for letting my silly comments slide by the way (and yes those bars do look strange on the Haruhi page, without the numbers they would be very misleading, oh well whatever)

There was one other thing I wanted to mention and that is that I feel we get a distorted view of what is happening with Kyon as the narrator. The way I see it, Haruhi isn't quite the demon-girl he makes her out to be and Kyon isn't quite the poor helpless victim of her activities as he makes himself out to be. I'd love to see a chapter in the novel from her point of view, but that would probably spoil a lot of future plot developments.

dormcat wrote:

frouella wrote:

Dan42 wrote:

Or another way to put it:
An adventure is when something dangerous, exciting, and unique happens to someone else in far away place.

Yeah, that's definitely a more succinct way to put it! Laughing

While both of you had described it quite nicely, I still have a difficult time finding out the Chinese curse you mentioned in its original form. Rolling Eyes

Sorry, I don't have the dusty old scroll right here in front of me. Actually, I might've read it in a fortune cookie; I'm not entirely sure. Wink

frentymon wrote:

On another note, anyone else following Higurashi no Naku Koro ni? I don't actually know why Haruhi gets so much more attention than Higurashi; IMO they are equally creative, entertaining, and brilliant.

From the start the animation quality was only a little above Violinist of Hamelin, but I stopped watching during episode 6 (I think) when one of the girls is shaking a ladder and the animation is SO BAD that I couldn't bear it. Contrast that with HSnY which has amazing animation from start to finish.

Dan42 wrote:

Steroid had some great arguments; I wish people would stop being so over-protective of HSnY. Sure it's great, but it looks like a lot of people have entrenched themselves and refuse to believe that it might have some (gasp!) un-original elements to it. If I had to name the theme of the series, I would say it's something like "we may want excitement and adventures from time to time, but in the end having a normal life is the best". Anobody else? What do you think the theme is? (if there is one)

He had great arguments and perhaps would have gotten some good discussion had they been phrased as actual arguments or criticisms rather than blatant bashing of the series. He couldn't have possibly expected people NOT to defend the series they liked with the way he worded things.

And no, the characters are not original, but they don't need to be. Pretty much any character in any series is going to fit into some sort of character type. But its what a series does with those types that counts. The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya takes those types and gives them some depth and fleshes them out (and in some cases may even make fun of them) rather than simply stick the character types in there and roll with it.

Quote:

I think there are basically 2 way to create a great anime (or anything, for that matter); either make something that no one has ever done before, or make something better than anyone has done before. I have more respect for the first way, but SHnY is definitely a masterpiece in the second way.

Unfortunately, creating something "original" is extremely difficult if not impossible. At best, you can put a relatively original (or little used) twist or spin on an unoriginal premise or plot. I always say that execution is more important than originality, so I never praise something for being 'original.'

frentymon wrote:

On another note, anyone else following Higurashi no Naku Koro ni? I don't actually know why Haruhi gets so much more attention than Higurashi; IMO they are equally creative, entertaining, and brilliant.

I can think of several reasons, but that really isn't for this thread.

Dan42 wrote:

Anthony P wrote:

Quote:

Furthermore, although Suzumiya Haruhi herself stereotypes Itsuki Koizumi as a mysterious transfer student, all of the major characters in the show are stereotypes, to one degree or another. Haruhi is the short tempered, aggressive heroine that we're seen before as Chidori Kaname from Full Metal Panic, Kaoru Kamiya in Rurouni Kenshin, and Tomo Takino from Azumanga Daioh. Kyon is the typical passive male protagonist from slice of life anime. He's similar to characters like Hiroyuki Fujita of To Heart and Kenji Tomosaka from Lamune. Yuki is the robotic introvert in the vein of Nadesico's Ruri Hoshino, Evangelion's Rei Ayanami, and Ninomai Kisaragi from Happy Lesson. Mikuru Asahina is the shy and easily embarrassed klutz, similar to Ai Yori Aoshi's Taeko Minazuki and Mahoromatic's Minawa Ando. The characters are interesting and fun, but not ground breaking.

The parallels he's drawn between the characters from other series are stretched rather thin. Just because a story's characters share some superficial similarities to characters from other stories does not render them stereotypical.

This is from a few pages back but I just had to answer. If you think that the HSnY character are even *slightly* original, you are utterly deluding yourself. Sure they are well fleshed, but even within the show, Suzumiya herself refers to Mikuru as the "moe lolita character", to Yuki as the "indispensable silent character", to Itsuki as the "mysterious transfer student". The show *itself* revels in the stereotypicalness of its characters, so don't even try to pretend they are original.

Well, I thought I'd try, at least. Laughing

But seriously, I'll agree that Haruhi's characters function within their respective archetypes; the original problem I had with Ask John's bit was it came across as "Character A from Y series is similar to Character B from X series. Therefore, both characters are stereotypes". But, whatever.

Quote:

If I had to name the theme of the series, I would say it's something like "we may want excitement and adventures from time to time, but in the end having a normal life is the best". Anobody else? What do you think the theme is? (if there is one)

Oh, I'd say there's definitely multiple themes that would apply to the series. One of mine is fairly similar to yours; "Even if you want a more exciting life, and even if you get that exciting life, you'll still be the same boring you."

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