Forum - View topicFate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV).
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鏡
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So while it's true that a knight of faith relies on the ability of God to actualize the impossible, it's a recognition of the absurd combined with that faith in God which allows a knight of faith to recognize that their actions violate universal ethical principles and are logically inconsistent, but maintain that through faith spiritual labour will be redeemed, that their actions will be redeemed not only in the realm of the infinite (IE. the actions are good insofar as they are dedicated to something good) but even back in the realm of the finite and ethical.
With Shirou in UBW, Kerry's wish is basically playing the role of God. The point is that Shirou recognizes his fate as one that is both ethically reprehensible and logically unjustifiable, but with faith in Kerry's wish, he resigns himself to the infinite beauty of the pursuit and also expects that it will ultimately be the ethically right thing to do. This is why in his fight with Archer his justifications devolve into claims of his own hypocrisy and "not being able to help it". A knight of faith can't properly express the nature of their expectation that their actions will be redeemed in the finite, because they believe it in virtue of the absurd, and all that they can express is the infinite resignation which preceded their faithful dedication. But the key sign of Shirou's status here are his actions: a knight of infinite resignation would not pursue the actualization of Kerry's wish by the violation of ethical principles because they would understand those ethical principles as binding; they wouldn't have teleologically suspended them by virtue of the absurd. Although this reading makes Rin's deterrence project seem not only hopeless but silly. |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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I'd like to follow this conversation, but unfortunately some of the words used are making that impossible. For example, the word "resigned" is used in a way that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. An example of how I would use it: I wanted to be an astronaut, but had to resign myself to being a janitor. So, in this sense, resigned means "accepting something less" than whatever it is you actually wanted.
Also, I'm not sure how the word "absurd" is being applied here, because while there are various connotations around it, none of the ones I'm aware of seem to fit very well in the context being used. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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It's just Kierkegaard's terminology. Absurd refers to the impossible made possible through divine intervention. If Shirou is a knight of faith, that would mean that he strives to save everyone knowing that it's impossible, but having faith that it will be accomplished through an act miracle. What I have a problem with is supposing that Kierkegaard's idea works without God as the miracle maker. There's no transcendent entity to direct the faith to.
Also I don't think Shirou has any doubts about the ethical worth of his pursuit only it's authenticity and the logical contradiction, because it forces him to question his own meaning. Aside from that I think the interpretation is valid enough, at least I'm not going to dispute it further without being able to read the novel in its original language. |
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鏡
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To push the comparison a bit further: Shirou's inheritance of Avalon and the emergence of his magecraft are both juxtaposed against his resolution, and both of these things are at their most prominent and important when Shirou realizes his faith, as though his faith is literally manifesting and pushing him beyond his humanity, which is definitely cheating and breaks with Kierkegaard, but works pretty well thematically imo. One might be tempted to say it's the show saying that Shirou's magecraft is the absurd at work, which works with the Kerry wish=god line as the show goes to pains in tying Avalon with Shirou's recognition of the beauty of Kerry's ideals in the montage in 20.
To get the meat of this comparison across, compare Shirou's nonsensical resolution at the end of UBW with this example of a knight of faith from Fear and Trembling: "But if I knew where there was such a knight of faith, I would make a pilgrimage to him on foot, for this prodigy interests me absolutely. I would not let go of him for an instant, every moment I would watch to see how he managed to make the movements, I would regard myself as secured for life, and would divide my time between looking at him and practicing the exercises myself, and thus would spend all my time admiring him. As was said, I have not found any such person, but I can well think him. Here he is. Acquaintance made, I am introduced to him. The moment I set eyes on him I instantly push him from me, I myself leap backwards, I clasp my hands and say half aloud, "Good Lord, is this the man? Is it really he? Why, he looks like a tax-collector!" However, it is the man after all. I draw closer to him, watching his least movements to see whether there might not be visible a little heterogeneous fractional telegraphic message from the infinite, a glance, a look, a gesture, a note of sadness, a smile, which betrayed the infinite in its heterogeneity with the finite. No! I examine his figure from tip to toe to see if there might not be a cranny through which the infinite was peeping. No! He is solid through and through....One can discover nothing of that aloof and superior nature whereby one recognizes the knight of the infinite... Toward evening he walks home, his gait is as indefatigable as that of the postman. On his way he reflects that his wife has surely a special little warm dish prepared for him, e.g. a calf’s head roasted, garnished with vegetables. If he were to meet a man like-minded, he could continue as far as East Gate to discourse with him about that dish, with a passion befitting a hotel chef. As it happens, he hasn’t four pence to his name, and yet he fully and firmly believes that his wife has that dainty dish for him. If she had it, it would then be an invidious sight for superior people and an inspiring one for the plain man, to see him eat; for his appetite is greater than Esau’s. His wife hasn’t it -- strangely enough, it is quite the same to him. " To clarify: the meal is "everybody gets saved". The imperturbability of the tax collector also speaks to Archer's "even if you become a machine". |
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louis6578
 Posts: 1862 |
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It feels like the paths/routes of Fate, UBW, and Heaven's Feel were meant to be viewed together/played back to back. Shirou starts as a naive hero wannabe with a guilt complex and no power, yet through each route he grows stronger. Plus, Heaven's Feel had the meta-conclusion to Shirou's character arc, while UBW and Fate leave things ambiguous.
My point is that Shirou doesn't really get a nice conclusion to his arc in this. It all feels like a stepping stone or a first arc in a larger story. It could just be me. |
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ivorymoose
 Posts: 240 |
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Resurrecting an old thread....
I'm very new to FSN, I've only watched FSN/Zero and Ultimate Blade Works both on Netflix. The chronology of FSN titles seem complicated. Can someone be kind enough to recommend which sequel/titles I should be watching next? I found FSN to be a meh/ok series, I'm more a mecha person. I am reminded to watch FSN because I collect resin ball jointed dolls as a hobby and the doll company Volks Inc of Japan seems zealous over releasing Saber (many versions) in their "Dollfie Dream" line of dolls. Each time I see a Saber doll released, I remember the anime. Anyway.....here's my take on Unlimited Blade Works.spoiler[ I am disappointed that Gilgamesh lost his shine. What happened to his glittery clothes, ear rings and taste for wine? What happened to his affections for Saber? It's a brave move to cast a new main heroic spirit (Archer) in a new series that is supposedly a sequel to the last. To the credit of the producers, they did a wonderful job, Archer was all impressive but still I don't know what happened to Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh "character building" and or a fight between him and Archer over Saber would have been interesting. Although I am not into Romance in anime, I hope to see Saber find a suitable companion.] |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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While I'm sure you'll get various opinions as to the proper order for watching Fate Nasuverse stuff, my suggestion is:
1. Fate/Stay Night (by DEEN) 2. Fate/Unlimited Blade Works (by ufotable) 3. Fate/Zero Just as an FYI: F/Z was not written by the guy who wrote the F/SN visual novel (which is where this all originated). F/Z was written by someone else, several years later, though I believe it has the blessings of Nasu (the franchise creator). The F/SN visual novel has three different paths in it, each of which require the previous path to be completed before it unlocks. The first two paths are #1 and #2 above. The third path is called Fate/Heaven's Feel, and I've heard that ufotable will be making a movie version of it. When they do, I would put it at #3 and drop F/Z to #4. |
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killjoy_the
 Posts: 2459 |
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Fate/Zero was written at around the same time as Fate/stay night. The first novel came out in 2006 but it was already foreshadowed in Fate/hollow ataraxia, which came out a year after Fate/stay night (which was released in 2004). I remember reading somewhere that the reason F/Z wasn't released early was because Typemoon wanted F/SN to establish itself first, but I got no source for it. Urobochi is the one who wrote it, but Nasu was overseeing the project (not that he's ever been one to just say 'no' to whatever people throw at the franchise anyway) The original visual novel had three routes which had to be unlocked in order: Fate, Unlimited Blade Works, and Heaven's Feel. Right now you can purchase these separately. The Fate/stay night anime by DEEN mostly follows the Fate route, but adds elements of the other routes and some original material. The Unlimited Blade Works anime by ufotable is more faithfully an adaption of the route, with minimal things added. The Heaven's Feel movie (s) have yet to be announced. When it comes to order, I'd say you're better off just watching what ufotable animated in the order they released it (Fate/Zero then Unlimited Blade Works). This is the most spoiler free way to see it, imo. If you've already watched both of these, give the 2006 Fate/stay night a try, and wait for the upcoming movies. There are spin offs but they are usually their own parallel world and very different in tone. |
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louis6578
Posts: 1862 |
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@ivorymoose Watch the Fate path if you want to see a few of Gilgamesh's other traits that UBW glossed over. I do agree though. It's disappointing that Gilgamesh's thing for Saber (a trait of his that I found to be oddly endearing, in that sort of cool "I'm the only one worthy of you" kind of way) was forgotten in UBW. The Fate path is the only one to really address it, and even then, not to the point that it was in Fate/Zero.
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ivorymoose
Posts: 240 |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin. louis657. 8killjoy_the Thanks for clearing things up for me. I was confused by the many spin offs and side movies. I wasn't sure which are the main titles. Now, I gather that I should look out for Heaven's Feel and meanwhile can catchup by watching the original FSN series, the one I did not watch.
I do not own a Saber Dollfie Dream doll although the doll company Volks released several versions of the doll over and over again. OK.....I don't like her. spoiler[She's too hard, serious, uptight, she tries too hard, shouldering blame on herself for every wrong, living in regret and trying to make right what went wrong long ago. She fights alone. I like Iskander and Gilgamesh for trying to help her let go of her regrets in Fate/Zero. I was so hoping that Gilgamesh and Saber will make some progress in UBW.  In UBW, Archer should have expressed his feelings towards Saber more clearly. Perhaps, Archer is Gilgamesh minus THE PRIDE.]
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louis6578
Posts: 1862 |
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Don't worry about spoiler tagging so much bro. The show is over. ^^ Also, Archer likes Saber? True, you can interpret it that way if you wanna go off of "Shirou likes Saber in the Fate Path, Shirou is Archer, Archer likes Saber" logic. However in UBW, Shirou likes Rin. Archer may have thought Saber was attractive, but it never really made it clear that he was in love with her, or anyone for that matter. I don't think Archer is like Gilgamesh, as you say, but the total opposite of him in most ways. By extension, Shirou is also Gilgamesh's opposite. This is in how they fight and their personalities. Archer is a closed ranged master with the skills to wield each weapon he conjures. Gilgamesh only uses long ranged items and is fairly adept at close range, but nothing compared to the other servants. Archer serves the girl he had feelings for in life. Gilgamesh feels as though Saber is an item to possess and he is the only one worthy of possessing her. Archer fights dirty and pragmatically, often trying to end things before they get too serious (the only exception to this is his fight with Shirou in UBW). Gilgamesh messes around too much during fights that he could easily win if he took them seriously. His pride is a canonical weakness that causes his downfall in every path spoiler[(for instance, had he used Enuma Elish from Ea against Shirou's Unlimited Blade Works, he could have destroyed the reality marble and won without effort like he did against Zero!Rider. He didn't feel Shirou was worthy, so he didn't go for the kill)]. Archer was born to common parents and overall grew up as a nobody. Gilgamesh was born 2/3 demigod and lived his entire life as the King of Heroes. Archer's only power is to copy others. Gilgamesh is the original hero with every prototype noble phantasm. Archer is ashamed of how he lived his life and wants to kill Shirou to possibly prevent that tragedy. Gilgamesh laughed at his folly near the end of his life, but didn't regret a thing (and Fate/Zero reveals that he believes anyone who feels regrets, especially as a king, is laughable in Gilgamesh's eyes). Finally, the most ironic one of all. Gilgamesh is the natural enemy of heroic spirits in general. Archer (because of his reality marble) is the natural enemy of Gilgamesh himself. |
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ivorymoose
Posts: 240 |
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I am not able to find the 2006 Fate Stay Night on Netflix. I shall look elsewhere. I do want to watch it.
louis6578 I really like your views on the scenarios as someone who knows FSN better. I do not know enough about the titles as a whole. I should pay more attention to the weapons of each heroic spirit. My opinions of Gilgamesh might change when I know him better. My take on Gilgamesh in Fate/Zero is that he was sincere with Saber but he was too proud to admit his feelings. He hide his feelings by saying that he wanted Saber as an object in his possession. That is easier to utter than expressing true feelings. Perhaps, it's my own wishful thinking that he might possibly be sincere. If only he would drop his pride. I think Saber and him will get along just fine; he fools around too much in battle, she's too serious, he's the easy going enjoy life type and she's the uptight, regretful type who cannot forgive herself for mistakes. He's evil and she's kind. I think they will make a cute couple, balance off each other's strengths and weaknesses.  In any case, Gilgamesh's behavior in UBW was regrettable.
Alright there....I have a resin boy doll that can easily pass off as Gilgamesh if I dress him up appropriately. Perhaps, my views of Gilgamesh have been influenced by my doll figure. I got the doll long ago, I was surprised to see his resemblance to Gilgamesh. I did not watch FSN until recently. |
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Dessa
 Posts: 4438 |
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No, no, that's exactly his feelings. He's haughty, prideful, and full of himself, and since he's the "King of Heroes," he deserves anything he wants, and he wants her. |
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louis6578
Posts: 1862 |
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@ivorymoose
Fair warning. Fate/Stay Night 2006 is not available for legal streaming anywhere that I know of. You may have to just buy the DVD/blu-ray from Sentai Filmworks (which aren't too bad in terms of price, though you may find yourself disappointed since it's not up to the quality of UBW, and ESPECIALLY not up to Fate/Zero's standards). And... I dunno about Gilgamesh liking Saber. He does try to corrupt her using the Holy Grail's fluids in the Fate path, but in certain other materials, it shows that once Saber is corrupted (thus subservient to him), she no longer interests him due to the fact that her individuality was why he liked her so much. Either way, I think that his attachment to her was part of what made him so endearing in Fate/Zero. Speaking of which, in the novel of Fate/Zero, it's revealed that Gilgamesh likes Saber because she looks and acts like Enkidu, Gilgamesh's only friend (the one that the alludes to when Rider suggests that they team up). |
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ivorymoose
Posts: 240 |
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This will be difficult because I no longer buy anime DVDs or collect DVDs unless it's a Bandai/Sunrise or Rurouni Kenshin title. Any other title will be sold after watching . I hope they stream this on Netflix like the Zero and UBW. I shall try and see how I can watch this. I do want to watch it. Alas, everyone does not seem to like Gilgamesh, I want to believe that Gilgamesh is sincere at the bottom of his heart. In Fate/Zero, I do think he is sincere, he just can't drop his kingly pride and admit he's in love. I want to believe the best in him. His behavior in UBW was disappointing, if only he would drop his pride, demonstrate sincerity, patience and kindness towards Saber, the 2 will be perfect match for each other. Lots of interesting fights!
By the way, Saber isn't all that likable, she was also a King, proud, hard and cold in her expression. |
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