Forum - View topicPairing the Leads: The way it should be?
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Vaisaga
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I've brought this up in a few other threads, but I'd like to go indepth with it here. Do note that this is not a shipping thread. Also, there will be spoilers.
The main hero will get romantically involved with the main heroine. This is a pretty iron clad law that you can see in a lot of works, particularly anime. This isn't a big deal when the story revolves around those two people falling in love, but when it's a harem type show where the question is "who will he chose?" it sucks any mystery out of it. You only need to look at show's opening and see which girl is shown the most prominantly to know the answer. Even when the focus isn't romance, you can be sure something will happen between the leads. They can't just be friends or comrades, they have to hook up (unless one or both die or something). This is usually avoided if leads are incompatible (ie. Balsa and Chagum from Moribito), but even that doesn't stop some authors (ie. the manga version of a certain child rearing title). It's a little sad that recently Hollywood, who make their money adhering to formula, have more titles where the leads didn't hook up than Japan does. Kick Ass, Pacific Rim, Jack Reacher, and Captain America: The Winter Soldier, to name a few. There have been some anime to go against this, sure, but they aren't numerous. Mashiro-Iro Symphony is a fairly recent example. spoiler[Airi was introduced as your typical tsundere lead and while her and Shingo had their moments together, he eventually starts dating Miu instead.] The fan reaction was the most interesting part. I kept seeing people insist that spoiler[Airi was going to have a come-from-behind victory, even after Shingo and Miu slept together in the penultimate episode.] Is the idea that the leads have to hook up so ingrained in our minds that we can't accept anything else? I think the worst part of all this is that writers know we're expecting it so sometimes they don't bother putting much effort into that aspect. "We'll have our leads hook up for no reason and no one will question it because they know that's the way it has to be!" For example, Hoshizora e Kakaru Hashi, the title that made me realise all this. spoiler[Kazuma and Ui are the leads and naturally they hook up... But the thing is, Kazuma didn't really have many serious developments with her. They accidentally kissed on their first meeting, sure, but for most of the show Ui was dealing with her brother issues. Kazuma had much more meaningful development with Madoka and Ibuki, yet he passed them over for Ui because... because... Because it has to be that way!] Another example is True Tears. spoiler[Shin'ichirō and Hiromi are very distant from each other, because Hiromi is under the impression they are half siblings. Shin'ichirō meets Noe and they grow close and begin a relationship. It could have been a story about giving up on an old love and finding a new one, but nope, at the end as soon as Hiromi finds out the sibling thing was a lie, Shin'ichirō dumps Noe to be with Hiromi.] That's not the only show I felt would have been stronger if it didn't force itself to follow the 'law.' I know I'm alone in this, but I thought Toradora would have been better if spoiler[Ryuuji hooked up with Minori, which then would have forced Taiga to get her act together and learn how to take care of herself. She'd have her heartbroken, but she'd be a stronger person as a result.] I've already gone on at length about the other problems I have with that show's ending, so please don't debate me on this. Nobunaga the Fool just ended and spoiler[Nobunaga and Jeanne hook up... sorta. While Jeanne's feelings were in the open for awhile, Nobunaga showed no indication of seeing her in a romantic light. Yet when the time came they had their kiss and turn into sparkles. Granted that's the least of the ending's problems, but you get my point. Nobu had to love Jeanne too because that's how it's gotta be!] Seikoku no Dragonar also just ended with spoiler[Ash and Eco going in for a kiss... But Eco is Ash's dragon that was born from inside him. Up until that point he'd only seen her as his dragon, and it doesn't make much sense for him to suddenly see her as a potential romantic option. It'd be like randomly deciding to get married to your dog, but those are the laws of the anime universe!] Another trap that writers might fall in regarding this is that they plan their work out to end one way, but over the course of writing it the characters take on a life of their own and might develop better chemestry with characters they weren't intended to. Some authors believe they must follow their original plan, and force things to align that way. As a writer I believe in letting the characters influence their own story, so if Character A ends up working better with Character B, let them hook up even if the plan was for A to be with Character C. Recently JK Rowling went on record saying that she regrets hooking Ron and Hermione up and only did so because that's what her original plan said. She actually thinks she should have been with Harry. Tl;dr: Is pairing the leads the way it has to be, or is it an old cliche that hinders writing quality? |
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Treeborn
 Posts: 729 |
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I think it's stupid. I've also posted before that I hate a series where the main love interest is stupidly obvious from the get-go. Like you said, if the point of the series is for the main guy and girl to hook up, then yea go ahead and shove it in our faces.
However, once you introduce other characters into that mix (love triangles, harems, etc.), then I think it is a writer's duty to give those characters an equal chance to end up with the protagonist. They owe it to their characters to give them proper development, otherwise they come off as lazy writers who couldn't effectively use their devices. That's my opinion anyway. As far as your theory on writers feeling trapped by their original vision goes, I can actually see that as easily being true. I'm currently writing a novel I hope will become a series, and I have finished the draft of the first two books. There are several girls in the running to be with the guy, and I give them all somewhat equal attention, but I started this with the goal that this girl will be the one. However, after outlining the entire series, I found that I somehow gave one of the other girls much better development than the girl I chose, and I actually ended up wanting them to end up together. Still, I can't do that because the plot don't allow it. So, basically, I can see how that can be a problem. I prefer a series that doesn't shove the main love interest in my face--Haganai, the World God Only Knows, Is This a Zombie?, are some of my favorite series because of it (although I hated the ending to The World). |
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leatherhead333
 Posts: 1187 Location: Kansas |
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This why i don't particularly like harems in the first place. All the other girls besides the main heroine might as well be stock/filler because they never have a chance of ending up with the MC. It makes their interactions with him almost ultimately pointless because their feelings always go unrequited.
This is why i like harems to be delivered in one of two ways. 1. No body wins. Everyone still likes him but no one actually scores the official "girlfriend" card. I know this can be looked at as being kind of lazy and indecisive but it's much better than spitting in the faces of people who like the other characters. 2. Divide each love interest into arcs. This is what Amagami did and even though i haven't watched it yet I have to say i like this formula the most. We get to see the potential chemistry two characters have together MUCH better than if the story was trying to focus on everyone at once. It's much easier to decide who would be best for the Main guy in my opinion. Really though this is just a grievance that i think writers have to deal with. When your writing a story you pretty much have in your mind who is going to win in the end. You can make the illusion that the result will be different but you are always going to be conflicted if you try to change it. That's why having a harem/multiple girls in the first place will never satisfy everyone. Because in the end whoever wins someone loses and the people who were behind those losers are crushed 
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Bango
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I always like it when the hero goes for the less-obvious choice. Though that's often because I find the obvious girl to be less likable than some other one.
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Lavnovice9
Posts: 276 |
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And only listing four movies doesn't count as 'aren't numerous'? Seems pretty bias to me. My suggestion is to watch more anime. Plenty of anime exist where the main leads don't hook up. Listing a few shows out of a 40 show season isn't very indicative of a trend. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Click the "My Anime" button under my post. I think you'll find that I've seen enough anime.
There are more shows that don't go with the obvious choice, yeah. Kurokami, Shuffle and Akaneiro ni Somaru Saka are three others, but they're both a couple of years old. It's more likely that in the case they don't hook up, it means it was an open ending where he didn't pick anyone. But in those situations it's still pretty obvious who he was going to end up with if the show continued. |
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vanfanel
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This takes me way back to the very first anime with multiple love interests I ever saw: SDF Macross, which is still way up on my list of all-time favorites. spoiler[Hikaru gets a lot of time with Minmei early on, making her seem pretty inevitable from the start. I kind of wonder whether Hikaru/Misa was planned from the get-go or not -- Misa was not being drawn to be particularly attractive until she started getting characterization. Anyway, we got to see Hikaru and Minmei together, and stuck with them long enough to see their lives not headed in quite the same directions. Then the Misa thing comes out of the blue, blindsiding Ichijo and the viewer -- and you realize it makes perfect sense.] That really worked for me.
The harem thing bugs me because writers tend to milk it for as long as they can and then flee responsibility when the music finally stops. I can see why; I mean, if there are a bunch of equally nice people who like the MC, an entirely happy ending becomes pretty much impossible to pull off believably. Do viewers really want to end with some kind of depressing "Tenchi Muyo! I Want to Return To That Day," full of hearts breaking and friendships being destroyed? Because as "Kimagure Orange Road: I Want to Return To That Day" shows, spoiler[that's where these triangles and polyhedrons ultimately tend to lead.] I went through a period of caring how Naruto relationships would play out. (Naruhina fan -- guilty as charged.) But lately it's finally hit me: the author is well aware that Sakura and Hinata both have their partisans, and he's become very predictable in parceling out "moments" to both -- sort of like watering a couple of flower beds every few months -- without really doing a heck of a lot with either as characters. It worked for long time, but now it just feels like he's jerking readers around. |
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Chiibi
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If it doesn't happen, it. is. wrong.
This is pretty much the only title I've changed my mind about. I definitely prefer Eu over Haruna. I mean, Eu and Ayumu have a bond-nobody can break that. Technically though, Eu IS still the "first girl". ............oh right, there was Oreimo too.....>_>
It's about the journey, not the destination. Making it obvious doesn't make the journey less fun. Or maybe it does for those who want a different 'candidate' for the MC...but that rarely applies to me. I almost never like the other triangle/harem members. lol |
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Treeborn
Posts: 729 |
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The thing about that is that even though Eu is the "first girl", she is not the main girl. The author gives almost all the girls equal attention. In the end, you're not completely sure who is in the lead because they all get pretty much equal development. Yes, Ayumu does fantasize about Eu a lot, but those are just fantasies. He never straight up says he likes or loves her BTW, even though Eu gets more attention in the anime, Haruna definitely gets more in the LN. Doesn't the fact that they each get equal development make the series more entertaining though? Also: If you're arguing the Eu is the only one with a bond to Ayumu, Haruna and Yuki might have a few words for you :p
The journey is an important part. The journey is the series. However, often times, the destination doesn't match up with the journey. The creator has it set in stone that these two characters will end up together, but maybe he gives another girl (or guy) much better development than the main girl (or guy)? What then? In the case of Oreimo, it was obvious from the beginning that Kirino was going to win, but didn't all the other girls get much better development? Wouldn't ANY of the other girls have been better? "If it doesn't happen, it. is. wrong." Would you still say this if that were the case? Harems should have a sense of mystery on who will end up together. If the creator is going to fixate on one love interest, then he should just make the series about the two MCs instead of wasting time with others "possible" love interests who never had a chance. The journey is important, but so is the destination. P.S. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm attacking you. This is just something I feel strongly about :p |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Even if it's to the show's detriment? Oreimo is a good example of that. spoiler[The whole series focused more on Kyosuke rediscovering his brotherly side towards Kirino. He might have joked about it, but it always made clear he saw her as a sister, not a woman. Near the end much more focus was put on his relationship with Kuroneko and Ayase, but when it came time for him to pick some one, all those developments were thrown out the window and Kyosuke was suddenly magically in love with Kirino because the author had to force them together somehow. That's bad writing.]
People always say that, but it's not always true. I once hiked up a mountain road in the dark of night for about 2 hours to reach the hot spring at the top. That journey was worth it only because I got to get in the hot springs at the end. If I didn't that journey would have been a frustrating waste of time. If I go to the store with the intent to buy something, but that something isn't there, then that journey was just a waste of gas. So yeah, the destination has to make the journey worth it. And if the destination completely ignores the contents of the journey, then what was the point? And if a show is intending to make it's destination a mystery, it's not good if they give it away at the get-go. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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GUYS.
We are in agreement about Oreimo, okay? I mean, there are ALWAYS exceptions...no matter how few, there will always be ONE or two. It was indeed a poor choice. I was hoping for a unique plot of a guy falling into an otaku world and making an otaku girlfriend while still bonding with his sister in a family manner. That would have been a lot better.
I think it's pretty obvious that he does love her. I'm not saying he doesn't bond with Haruna or Yuuki...but I'm saying his bond with Eu feels the strongest, imho.
I'd like to agree to disagree. There's no way I'll change my mind about this one. Harems are still romance and I don't like being thrown curve balls with romance. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
........Vaisaga....physical journeys ARE a pain in the ass.  Being in Japan was fun but the plane ride was not, let me tell you.
I really wasn't talking about actual trips you take. Travel is exhausting. lol Last edited by Chiibi on Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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casualfan
Posts: 333 |
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One of my turn-offs from Hollywood movies or any romance in general is the obligatory romance between the two leads. Feels so cliched and forced most of the time. I feel like it zapped the creativity from character development because it's so easy and formulaic to write. So I personally dislike the obligatory leads pairing.
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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It's kind of odd. I also totally feel this way about movies but not anime or TV shows. .........I guess because it's a lot less rushed....you know, 12/26 eps verses 2 hours....lol, you can see how the latter can go wrong. I felt both love interests in Thor and Captain America were SO forced...I was like "UGH....is there such a thing as a superhero without a girlfriend?" >_____> |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23859 |
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I think you just don't like romance movies/stories. The whole point of a romance is to watch the leads get together. It's like saying, "the thing that bugs me about war movies is all the fighting" or "why do tragedies have to have sad endings? So expected and cliche." |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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It does extend beyond romance, though. Even if, say, it is a war movie about a soldier fighting his way through enemy lines, if there's a woman who fights along side him, there's going to be some sort of romantic subplot thrust upon them. Take Edge of Tomorrow. spoiler[It was pretty unnecessary for there to be that romantic moment between Cage and Rita before they take on the Omega.] It didn't add much but was obviously only there because there always has to be a romantic subplot for some reason. That's why it was so great to see Pacific Rim spoiler[end with a hug and not a kiss.] Last edited by Vaisaga on Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:45 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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