Forum - View topicREVIEW: Cross Ange: Rondo of Angel and Dragon Blu-Ray part 2
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Paul D. Atreides
 Posts: 128 |
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You know, considering the amount of vanilla (heart-warming hentai) I read every day on FAKKU, I really don't understand this consensus that hentai is an abyss of rape. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5831 Location: Virginia, United States |
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It’s a popular series and the controversy actually helps it sales. It’s like gun control. Every time the gun control crowd wail and gnash their teeth over how evil guns are, gun and ammo sales skyrocket. The reviews for the series were not so much about how bad the series was, but rather how deplorable and how much the reviewers hated it. That is a clear indication that this is a show to watch. And nobody likes being told how they should feel about what they watch, which is another reason to watch it.
Zac and Jacob are professionals, and if the series is popular enough to warrant a spotlight piece they would do it. Though I could see them not doing it, because they would not want to deal with the rage from those who hated it, and the other side who liked it would probably be knowingly stoking those fires. That said though, it is too soon for such a piece anyway. The series has to age and then we can see whether it becomes a period piece or just another show, controversial or not.
I think the far bigger question, is why is it far more acceptable to be greatly more graphic about sexual violence in popular written fiction, and even in live action movies, than in anime. (talking about anime fans here, not the mainstream crowd that thinks cartoons are for kids) If we didn't know better, it would almost seem that many anime fans tend to skew to the puritanical side of the spectrum. |
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dragonrider_cody
Posts: 2541 |
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Honestly, if it weren't for all the controversy surrounding this title, I doubt it's one I would have paid much attention to, let alone actually purchase. I prepared myself for what many on the internet would have me believe was a scene of horrid depravity. Instead, I found a very brief scene where the biggest violation was shown off camera.
True, it was a bit more sexualized than I would have liked, but I didn't see anything more offensive than scenes that have been present in dozens if not hundreds of anime. Now as a gay man, I'm definitely not the target audience for this type of fan service, and perhaps that cuts back on the impact on me. Not to mention, I work in an emergency department that deals with a number of psychiatric and addiction patients, so I've unfortunately had to participate in a number of forced strip searches and clothing changes. That likely cuts back on its impact on me as well. Fortunately, involuntary cavity searches are exceedingly rare, and usually handled by the doctors and police (for instances when a patient has hidden stamp bags in their rectum, for instance.) To me, it seemed simply a scene that was designed to have a major emotional impact on the viewer, for good or bad. It was a scene that stayed with the viewer, created controversy, and increased public knowledge of the show. Without it, I'm sure Cross Ange would have flown under the radar for a lot of people, and many like me would have never seen it. You can argue about its moral or artistic merits, but there is no doubt that the particular scene in question did exactly what it was intended to do. Not to mention, it also served as drastic statement on the destruction of Ange's humanity. She went from being a privileged princess who had her every need tended to, to a dehumanized, demoralized victim who was forced to fight to survive. Everything was stolen from her, including her innocence and privacy. They could have handled it a "classier" fashion, but would the impact have been the same? In Cross Ange's case, there was a least a legitimate reason for the strip down and cavity search, as opposed to dozens of other shows with similar scenes that serve as nothing more than fan service. In addition to demoralizing her character, many saw it as the perfect comeuppance for her prior hateful treatment of Norma's. |
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EighteenSky
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I don't read vanilla works often but they do outnumber the darker, nastier stuff I read by a wide margin, in manga at least from what I've seen. The reason people think of hentai as mostly rape, a 'cesspool' and the like is because those works are perhaps more notable and often receive anime versions ahead of the vanilla stuff, therefore being more known to the casual viewer / reader who doesn't dig deep into it. Goes for any medium, some people think all metal music is screaming as an example. End of the day there is plenty for everyone to enjoy. Sorry for going off topic. |
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zrnzle500
 Posts: 3767 |
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They watched all that was required of them professionally, which was the first episode. I don't think it is popular enough to necessitate such a piece, much less from them specifically on the podcast. And as you said the timing isn't right. It's too late for a "Well that just happened..." take and too soon to see how it ages. If I am mischaracterizing their willingness to watch any more of the show than they did, perhaps I can be forgiven for taking their ratings (and the reviews themselves) seriously spoiler[Nope nope nope nope nope and worthless respectively] Not that I have any reason not to. There is a reason Theron is the only one to have reviewed the show past the first episode. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18194 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Even before FAKKU went to a subscription service and moved towards being legit, they were more discerning on their content than other equivalent sites. Elsewhere titles involving prostitution, some degree of sexual blackmail/coercion, rape, sexual slavery, or even worse are so common that you have to be watching out carefully to dodge them. (And they aren't always tagged as such, either; taking advantage of a sleeping/passed out subject generally isn't tagged as rape, for instance.) Hentai doujinshi works featuring such content may not be in the majority but they are definitely a large minority. And the worst end of those is the deepest, darkest pit of depravity that I've ever encountered in creative works. (If you've never encountered what I'm talking about then you're best off not knowing about it, as it's probably worse that you can imagine.) So yeah, I'm not referring to all hentai as a "cesspool," and there are some great vanilla works out there, but I feel there's enough of the nasty stuff around to warrant the general label. |
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Paul D. Atreides
Posts: 128 |
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I actually looked at the numbers on FAKKU to see what the vanilla-forced ratio looks like, these are the results: Vanilla: Page 1 of 45 Forced: Page 1 of 6 (Yeah I know, not the most precise numbers, but you get the idea.) Considering how FAKKU publishes the most popular hentai-magazines in Japan, and the most notable books, I think it's safe to say that most people reading hentai just want to watch two people doing it, and indulging in desires that probably wouldn't raise any concern if anyone found out (big boobs/big butts). Last edited by Paul D. Atreides on Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DmonHiro
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I have to be honest, one of the reasons I loved this show was BECAUSE it pissed off, triggered and offneded a certain type of people. Would have watched it anyway because of Nana, but that was just an added bonus.
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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NPC
 Posts: 56 |
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It was rather strange development. In the beginning Ange considers Norma an abomination that should be purged by any means necessary. A bit later she turns Norma and now these means are so infuriating that she wants to "destroy the world", later replaced with euphemism "free the Norma". From generally nice, even if somewhat brainwashed, person, she turned into a maniac. By the moment she decides to "free the Norma" Norma population is reduced to people on board of the submarine, few pilots and kids in the capital, roughly 30 total. To free them it is sufficient to move them to old Earth. Conveniently Embryo jumped ahead of her and made all the mass murdering. Precisely at the moment Ange was about to start "freeing the Norma" he decided to finish his 500+ years long experiment for no particular reason. The plot doesn't make much sense. Still, it was entertaining series. Animation is great. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18194 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Actually, Embryo's comments at various points indicate that he wasn't happy with how things were going for a while now, and Julius' attack on Arzenal was the final straw.. Hence he was already planning towards yet another reset of the world at the time that he discovered how perfect a woman Ange was by his standards. Comments before suggested that this was not the first time that he had done a reset, but now he's concluded - after many trials and errors - that merging with the original Earth was the only proper thing to do, and he could do that now that he had Aura to power the magic for this iteration. And moving the Norma wholesale to the other world wasn't an option because Ange had already seen the evidence of Embryo's world-merging efforts by the time she returned to her world. (In fact, that's what prompted her to return, IIRC.) Ange's transformation was, I thought, pretty meticulously laid out. Took her a long time to accept that she was one of the Norma she had always ragged on, and she didn't handle that well. Once she saw the world from their perspective, and finally appreciate how wrong the prejudice was, she was disgusted enough to want to act against it. |
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NPC
Posts: 56 |
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Embryo could eliminate Julius any moment. Embryo is, basically, a god. He can bring back people turned to ash. Repairing Arzenal would be trivial for him. That is, assuming Arzenal was a reason for concern. It is a top secret operation, so political significance of it destruction is zero. It is inefficient as method of eliminating Norma - large military operation without efficient oversight or any reasons to be loyal. The only reason for it existence seems to be to collect dragnium from old Earth. Dragnium which was powering old Earth in 22th century, was released into environment as result of war and being slowly collected by few male dragons. It obviously can be obtained using industrial methods and Embryo is well aware of that. So, Arzenal is pointless.
Hmm, the guy had 500+ years of absolute power and he just found a perfect woman? Another weak point in the plot I think. World bends around Ange.
There were no other resets, not according to Salamandine's or Embryo's versions of events. 7th World War - new Earth. Aura's power is scraps of scraps of what humanity used in 22th century and apparently insufficient to support even current operation. "Only proper thing to do" - Embryo has access to multiverse. Release/kill/pack in a bag Aura, let human civilisation die by itself, leave old Earth as is, start in a new copy. Easy.
Start of episode 18, at the submarine, she explains the options. Basic idea - let's cut mana, it will end humanity and solve all the Norma's problems. World merging not even mentioned, as if it didn't happen. And no, she always intended to return. Stopping world merge and freeing the Norma two very different goals, she very clearly fixed on second one. If humanity ends, there will be no new Normas. So existing ones are the only those that matter. And about one third of those were actually wiped out during Ange's escape from the palace.
Just her mother's behavior in her last minutes should have been enough to make situation absolutely clear. Ange supposed to be smart. Another weak plot device.
But she becomes even more prejudiced! Humanity have no idea what happens, she was one of them few months ago, she doesn't even have an excuse of not understanding that billions she wants to slaughter to save 30 are completely innocent. Sorry about the wall of text. Not really intend to argue about it. It just that I watched this series recently and some plot details seem strange to me. Ange's "transformation" is especially amusing. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18194 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Just because he was nearly omnipotent doesn't mean that he was omniscient, too. And he gave the impression that changing things on a large scale (like repairing Arzenal) is not something that he could do with just a wave of his hand.
Arzenal was never meant to eliminate Norma, just contain them. (And while this was never said, I got the impression that you could tack on a "so Embryo could find them at his convenience without having to put in effort" to that, too.) And remember, the dragnium was back on the other Earth, so industrial means to gather it are not practical. Besides, it still would have had to be done by the Norma, since they weren't vulnerable to the Dragon people's abilities like Mana users are.
I don't see what's so odd about this. She had to be a Norma + have the song + be beautiful + be feisty enough (even in the face of him essentially being a god) to be a challenge for him. Seems like a rare case to me.
Start of episode 18, at the submarine, she explains the options.[/quote] Um, no, she doesn't, because she knows there's really only one feasible option: stopping Embryo. No other possibility is mentioned.
Maybe different, but not unrelated. The first has to be done or the second is pointless.
So after a lifetime of being indoctrinated into a certain belief, she's supposed to totally flip her ideology based just on something like that? Doesn't happen in the real world, either, not even with the smartest of people.
"Billions she wants to slaughter?" At one point does she ever indicate that she wants everyone else killed off? I think you're taking the "destroy the world" comment too literally. |
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Souther
 Posts: 602 |
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To add on to what Key said:
1) Beating Embryo, destroying the tower and freeing the Norma as a result wouldn't have destroyed the world. While Ange flips flops between raging at the world and not wanting to get involved, she ends up unintentionally saving them (yeah, some died in the fallout, who cares lol) because Embryo was going to destroy everything and everyone. And Ange was never going to extend some sort of mercy or sympathy towards them when she never received any of that for her prejudice, especially to a bunch of people who exiled her and killed her parents. She left them to fend and live for themselves. Finally, the higher-ups knew about Arzenal, like Misty's family, so they weren't totally ignorant. 2) Arzenal were considered a threat by Julio at the time because they possessed the Villkiss (probably supposed to be Bilquis since all the Ragna-mails are named after female royalty). Like Key said, before that, they were used as scapegoats and separated from society for the sake of harmony, as Embryo said. They were also useful in collecting Dracunium from the Dragons, and Embryo doesn't have to get his hands dirty. It's win-win. 3) Embryo is an arsehole. He likes to manipulate people and thinks he knows what's best because he's lived an incredibly long time. Ange was the only person in ages who could stand up to him, and he became obsessed with trying to make her his. Embryo's too arrogant to do any kind of introspection and realise his methods could never make a perfect world because that would mean him realising his own faults. That's basically it. |
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NPC
Posts: 56 |
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Absolutely no reason for him to repair it. As a side effect of being god he has huge influence among 6-8 top bosses of this world, he can ask/order them to do the repairs and handle only reanimation (assuming he needs more Normas). This is the guy who built this civilization from scratch, Arzenal is nothing.
Simple reservation would do the trick much better. Forcing people to fight without giving them huge carrot and/or huge stick is bad idea. There is absolutely no reason for them to not investigate where dragons come from. Especially knowing that they are, in fact, sentient humanoids. Arzenal is not sustainable as long term solution of any problem.
I don't remember him saying at any point that Norma is valuable for him other than a boogieman for general population. And I watched it like 4 days ago.
Industrial means were practical on old Earth, they remain practical on new Earth. It was generic power source, Salamandine was very clear about it. All that necessary to produce it is knowledge and investments. Embryo has both. Magic could make it eaiser actually. Human's equipment like planes, ships, cars, is top notch and they can produce the paramails.
Nope. Can be done by anyone anywhere. Nothing links dragnium production to old Earth, new one is exact copy. And there is no any indication that they are immune - first casualty is torn in halves by a magic beam, they avoid white shards sent by dragons, they use kinetic weapon against dragon shields, they (not just armor) were pinned down by gravity. Plus, this would completely eliminate any need to fight dragons which makes nonexistent immunity redundant.
Strange set of requirements. Norma - why? Song - why? Beautiful - not a problem. Feisty - all that he does is trying to beat it out of her. In 500 years he probably would be over the "I gonna be a harem king" dream. Embryo was off-chart smart in 22th century, 540 years of experience should have made him wise. Sadly he is a cardboard villain.
Yes she does. Exact quote from dub: "...lets join them. They want to save Aura. That's their one goal. If they do, all the world energy would be cut off. Humans won't have mana. Which means their world will end. They'll lose their ability to open singulars so paramails would become obsolete. Most importantly, this disgusting cycle of Norma killing dragons for their mana energy and keeping humans in power will stop." At no point she mentions Embryo or world merging. Later Jill suggests to assassinate Embryo, Agne objects based on other minor details of the plan (usage of dragons). Considering that "stopping Embryo is the only one feasible option", she was wrong.
We are talking about intent. Ange is hellbent on ending human civilization, Embryo and his games with world merging don't concern her much.
She knows how to distinguish Norma from human, the fact that she is Norma is undeniable. Isolation of Norma by any means is part of her indoctrination. Yes, as soon as she broke the barrier and heard her mother's words this indoctrination supposed to kick in.
This world is based on mana. They don't have earlier technology to rely on. Imagine humanity which lost momentarily electricity, internal combustion engines, steam machines and have no means to restore this technology. There are books and TV series that describe such scenarios. E.g. book "One second after" - EMP pulse, TV series "Revolution" - nanorobots block electricity  . Result is rapid depopulation, like 80% in couple months just from hunger. And then it gets worse. This is for our, much more resilient, world,, and just electricity. No, this is still "destroy the world" scenario.
Note that this genocide is not really necessary to free Norma, they just need a little time to transition from mana to dragnium/electricity/steam. They don't even need reeducation because everyone would become Norma. Her suggestion to her sister to "fight for it" is completely pointless. There is nothing to fight for except for few remaining packs of chips. Well, I suppose this is bad case of over-analyzing. Anime often uses completely outlandish ideas. Still, Ange could be easily tweaked into much better human being.
Yes, Embryo conveniently saved her from being a mass murderer. It doesn't make her any better though.
So, what, 100 people? 200? Right, its ok then. Take off and nuke the entire place from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.
Makes no sense for reasons already mentioned.
Completely irrelevant to topics being discussed. |
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