Forum - View topicINTEREST: Masaaki Yuasa Responds to Critic's Poor Review of Devilman Crybaby
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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[/quote] Counterpoint: many people seek out anime because they find it refreshing that it doesn't conform to Western cultural norms, such as Judeo-Christian norms. Devilman Crybaby, for example, depicts a demon-possessed boy as the good guy, and Satan & even God as neutral to bad guys. Not many Western stories do that. |
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Jose Cruz
 Posts: 1773 Location: South America |
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Indeed. It felt very much "Evangelion like" when I watched it. I think that the critic's opinion is due to the fact Yuasa's personal art and directing style is very different from typical in the industry and he thinks that the fact that such personal style is getting international attention because it deviates from the traditional style of most anime, which he apparently thinks is a bad thing. |
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Guile
Posts: 595 |
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I am actually very anti social justice. The people who want Japan to conform to western standards are the social justice people. I am just pointing out there is a lot of people here who seem to be reveling in the idea Japan will conform to western sensibilities and tastes. I just found it strange given Devilman is still distinctly Japanese and it's already been corrected that the critic was mistranslated and said nothing about that.
Japan having Japanese standards isn't a problem. If Japan watched a bunch of western TV, called it trash, and said the only good shows were ones made with Japan in mind, like those anime wannabe cartoons, and said western TV needs to abandon their market and focus entirely on Japanese tastes, then it would be a problem. Or if Japan stereotyped all westerners as only enjoying awful, cheesy sitcoms like people here think otaku only like moe.
Yeah, most of animes appeal in the west is it offers new perspectives and ideas not found in western media. The anti-otaku/Japanese people I mentioned are in the minority, and are the ones who usually say anime is dead or only 1 show a year is worth watching. |
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 5927 |
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Sure at least to you to the rest of us that can acknowledge these standards outdated and logically wrong as they are can be? No.
To whom?
Here's the funny thing about stereotypes though they occasionally have some truth to them. And while all otaku don't like moe made poignantly obvious by the frequent calls to end all cutesy looking related material there is a considerable amount of that stuff coming out the woodwork and I'm not of the mind they're putting the stuff out just to do so. Secondly I wouldn't say America is into cheesy sitcoms nowadays it's reality TV shows. |
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Okashira
Posts: 4 |
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#FactsOnly |
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Jose Cruz
Posts: 1773 Location: South America |
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Indeed. I think the English speaking anime fan community is a bit toxic since they dehumanize the Japanese people all the time, for instance, by saying offensive things like "pandering to otaku tastes" when referring to media they didn't like because they don't follow Western mores (the most common complaint is sexualization of female characters). And the people who say that are often the ones who are super hardcore fans (hence, "otaku" to the Japanese). Well, ethnocentrism is a general feature of all cultures so that is expected. |
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Lord Oink
Posts: 876 |
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Otaku is one of those words that have lost all meaning and has come to just mean 'people I don't like' in English circles. They almost always fail to realize the shows they like are aimed at otaku, and think it only applies to stuff they don't like. Somehow they think their late-night disk-sales dependant show is different than another late-night disk-sales dependant show. Unless you watch exclusively daytime kids stuff like One Piece, Conan, or Pokemon, you're watching an otaku show (dun dun dunnnnn) But Attack on Titan and Made in Abyss are different from Sword Art Online and Macross in their eyes because... reasons. |
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Connor Dino
Posts: 297 |
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Oh wow, "Ethnocentrism is a general feature of all cultures" is the most faux deep thing I have read in a long time. I hope you didn't pay a lot of money for that intercultural communication class, because it wasn't enough. Why you ask? Because I am going to challenge your ideas. Let's see if they hold up to skepticism (spoiler alert: they don't). And also, this isn't me being dehumanizing. This is me challenging your ideas. You don't seem to know the difference, but we'll get to that later.... You and Guile's criticism of the "English anime fan community" would only marginally work if the Japanese anime fan community is a place of tranquility, responsible debate, and respect. Which I think we all know isn't the case. Are you saying that because a lot of anime is made for the Japanese...that Westerns can't be critical of anime? Is that what you are saying? Your ideas also preclude the fact that Japanese fanbases can be just as toxic (if not more so) then Western anime fanbases. So your "point" about toxicity is meaningless. There are Japanese fans who hate new anime. There are English fans who hate new anime. There are Japanese fans who hate moe. There are English fans who hate moe. And vise versa! Now Jose, let's talk about you. Please, for the love of God, explain to me how saying things like "pandering to otaku tastes" is dehumanizing. Actually explain it to me in detail because I don't think you can, why? Because your example is not dehumanizing. It is an opinion. Japanese fans can say that Star Wars panders to Western nerd sensibilities. Is that dehumanizing too? No? Do you even know what actual dehumanization is? Why are you making light of actual problems of dehumanization in the world by somehow saying that a opinion is "dehumanizing"? Am I taking crazy pills?! Saying that art panders to its audience is not a new criticism. Regardless of form or culture, that criticism is always there. Why should anime be an exception to this? And I'll be honest. It seem to me like you have more of a problem that some anime fans don't conform to your predilection of what is acceptable criticism. Nothing they are saying is a horrible racial epithet, nor are they demeaning or generalizing the Japanese people (ironically it is you guys who are doing that with Western fans). They like anime, they have opinions about anime, and they want it to be "good," which means they want the art to match their own personal preference. A preference supported by their own experiences, cultures, and beliefs. What is wrong with that? It is human nature. This does not mean it is rational and being an anime fan means accepting that anime (generally) isn't made for you as a Western. But that does NOT mean they can't be critical or express their support/distaste towards a series. Also, what is your solution? That the only people able to have opinions about anime are the Japanese? Because that seems to be the direction your logic is pointing. In the end, none of your ideas hope up to scruntiy. Either because you are explaining them poorly or because they simply are bad ideas. Either explain yourself better or spin another web Charlotte. |
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TheAnimeRevolutionizer
 Posts: 329 |
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You know Connor Dino, I enjoy the fact you tend to read between the lines, but let's get crazy with this little debate about to go full war, shall we? In many respects, I think the justified reaction to this native anime critic is proper and well deserved. I honestly think Japan needs to realize that it's more than being cold and prim and proper, but in turn I'm sure that there are many who are living life knowing that all too well and a lot of people just don't see that (Quit thinking everything about Japanese life is everything you read on The Japan Times, people. Arundo Debito is also a hack and a liar). I do respect that if Japan is happy with what they have as a most part, they should keep at it, but if the opportunity rises, I hope that they realize what makes them great and inspire them to do more great and innovative things in the long run. I'm sure back in the 1990s, this guy would have been trashed harder than Hideaki Anno and End of Evangelion for his shit. On the other hand, look, I'm not going to lie. While I don't agree entirely with Jose and Guile, there is some truth to what they've said. And while you have every right as a connoisseur to judge and have your own tastes, that doesn't change the fact that the most outspoken of them are real not-so-nice-people who think that if they huff, and puff, and blow as much as the Big Bad Wolf, they'll get in some "real opinion" to Japan and that will somehow cause Japan to cater to them. And don't give me "deal with it". I've dealt with those shitheads for as long as I have. I live in a country that explicitly oozes and espouses freedom and freedom of creativity and equality for all, and yet the mindset shows hypocrisy and double standards. I grew up in the 1990s knowing that anime would be a powerful medium that wasn't just adored for its style or its mere surface exoticness, but the majority followed through with the latter. Into this day, Anime is to be strictly made in Japan.... Yet if it's "not made right", here comes the biggest flood of tears and the world's smallest violin from me. Already I've seen idiots of that degree, from THEM Anime Reviews and Colony Drop, to social media site shitposters about how much "we are trash" for liking anime, and yet they'll come to the forefront whenever Japan doesn't do anything "right for us". If anything I've seen how being a mere fandom follower and spectator who shallowly follows anything thrown at them isn't a way to live. As I've witnessed, living like that eschews the need for self reflection and to know how culturally important and historically significant you are, even on our small tiny mudball in a big cosmos. It negates the need to wonder and investigate intellectually and compassionately what makes anime truly work. It extinguishes the bond between all men that goes beyond cultural and national borders, and moves all of that collateral responsible for it straight to the ego. And it flushes everything down the drain by putting up false walls of cannots and can't dos. If anything this has shown me how being the spectator of a craft and rather than attempting to specialize and understand it regardless of whether it's traditional or novel, instead, to whine and complain and nitpick, is a degrading and pathetic way to live. Infact, I've learned to take any word from such people without any salt applied and all returned back to them. That's how much credibility they have from me. And if this is "too deep", well it sure looks shallow out there. So yeah. I don't agree with what that critic of Devilman Crybaby has to say about it. But it's sure not for your reasons or any of Jose's or Guile's reasons. |
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Jose Cruz
Posts: 1773 Location: South America |
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@Connor Dino, there is no need for you to attack people who hold an opinion that you interpret as being different from yours. Specially given the case you misunderstood the points people here are making.
Dehumanizing means reducing individual human beings to stereotypical constructs. For example, if you call a Japanese person who is watched Fate Zero a "otaku" you are already reducing that individual person to a set of stereotypes and hence you are dehumazining. It's like calling a North American fan of Star Wars a "overweight pink skinned redneck nerd". Any form of stereotyping is morally wrong. Even talking about "anime like animation" is a form of stereotyping Japanese culture that Western animation fans often do: what K-On! and Evangelion and Ping Pong have in common? Nothing. They are made for different audiences and were made using different visual and narrative styles. The only things they have in common is that they are animated and that feature much higher levels of visual and narrative complexity than are present in western animation. |
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simona.com
 Posts: 330 Location: Tokyo |
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sounds like a bigoted fascist to me. get a life.
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shiitake
Posts: 9 |
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This translation is wrong. Yeah, it is just atrociously fabricated. Surely introducing these topics speedy to English speakers would be great opportunity for them to be able to grasp what happens now in Japanese circle and their current controversy about anime and manga, but if you want to take up sensitive topic like these directly involving other person's reputation, you must have good understanding of Japanese, and do it cautiously. Original Japanese is this: あと「オタクvsサブカル」という古い対立構図を持ち出したことに対する批判が多いですが、どちらかというと要点は、ドメスティックだが豊かな文化がいつの間にか「外部」を失ってしまう、という現象について考えたかったのですが、ラジオの放談とツイートでは精密さに欠けますね。 In the translation, 「外部」was translated as "outside" in English literally which is obviously implying "outside of Japanese market" or "overseas anime community" but, actually, he used the word in this context as the meaning of "remainder" or a sort like that meaning. You will clearly notice he said "外部を失ってしまう", so, even if you translate it literally, it is clear he didn't say at all "abundant culture" can inadvertently become overshadowed due to concerns about the "outside., or things that mean despising the existence of foreign markets in this tweet, rather, he actually did mean losing "outside" is not good for Japanese animation. So, what did he actually mean by this tweet and "outside"? Well, it's confusing possibly even for Japanese because, after all, he is a guy who has been working with Hiroki Azuma, a critic and former researcher about Jacques Derrida who was postmodernism philosopher known about his convoluted writing. Which means these "exotic" terms using for their specific purposes are often not conventional ones Japanese are ordinarily using --- to be fair, that's why he used 外部 with quotation marks in this tweet. As far as I read, basically what he is saying is, if Anime as a medium is considered to value itself by seeing it through the framework such as Devilman Crybaby is good because it abandoned anime's otaku-ness and went pandering to subcul-ness as some people say, Anime would lose the base of it which has been domestic, yet fertile. In this context, the word "外部" is used as a thing having the implication that is equivalent to "domestic", as well as to "otaku-ness" sometimes seen as a kind of "inferior" thing among the people who like "subcull-ness" or "ordinary" people who tend to bash Anime due to its "otaku-ness" or "anime-ness". Basically, by saying this, he is trying to stand on the position that "whether its content is otaku-ness or not doesn't matter even if some people see it as an obstacle to competing on more 'global' stage, and just being 'anti-otaku-ness' doesn't make the work better automatically" --- not on any statements praising "panty-shots" or "pervert" fetishes in late night animes --- and arguing against a voice of putting a high value on its "superficial" "subcul-ness", which Devilman Crybaby seemed to have performed well to him. By the way, I don't necessarily agree with him about all his points, and I don't think his criticism of Devilman Crybaby and Yuasa was done with good manners, but, seeing this conversation in English based on this terrible mistranslation, at least, I will have to say that he is absolutely not racist, or any type of bigots as some people claim. Last edited by shiitake on Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:28 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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TheAnimeRevolutionizer
Posts: 329 |
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Thank you very much for this translation. |
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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I'm not sure if I fully understand what you mean about this (though I HAVE read Jacques Derrida in college, and his stuff was annoying to read through, as were the other nihilists of his era). Do you mean that this critic is saying whether or not it appeals to otaku or against otaku should not matter on how popular a series can potentially be? |
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shiitake
Posts: 9 |
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The reason I mentioned Derrida in the above post is just for explaining, to the people who don't know well about his background, the reason why he used the word "外部" despite that some people would not realize soon its implication. I don't think the term "外部" in this case is actually releated to Derrida's philosophy or any postmodanism philosophy. I mean, he is one of a group who are familiar with these postmodernism critique, and, In my understanding, these people tend to often use the "exotic" terms without any predefinition. Anyway, as I said above, even if we try to translate it literally, we can never translate like that in this article though. It's a totally fabricated translation based on the translator's wrong speculation. By the way, If I try to translate 外部 so as to meet its original implication, I would use "peripheral", "marginalized", "illegitimate", or "unorthodox" -ness as an alternative of the literal translation.
In my understanding of his tweets, basically it is. He is seeing Devilman Crybaby as the thing that is desperate to be subcul-ness, that its supporters put a high value on, but which is in itself just existing as an antithesis against otaku-ness. However, in his perspective, even this conception of "otaku vs subcul" in Japanese is nothing but an old issue actually caused by "domestic disease" because just to make their works as the ones being anti-otaku-ness doesn't guarantee its quality, and the assumption that to strangle otaku-ness of Anime will lead to its success in the "global" stage is a mere delusion based on non-existing premises. (cf. [1],[2],[3],[4]) Well, in the sense of indirectly implying the "otaku-ness" has been seeing its sucess in global markets, it would be said he is an advocater of otaku-ness though. Anyway, one thing we should take note of in this entire context is, that he is not denying the globalization of Anime and the existence of its consumers outside Japan. I am not sure how he perceives foreign markets, but, at least, it is clear that's not a point of this matter to him. One last thing: at the end of the day, It is needless to say these are nothing more than my reading of his original Japanese tweets. To be honest, I don't think we can discuss about this matter in the appropriate way. The best way to comprehend what he actually said is to read it in Japanese by yourself, and, in the first place, even if you can read it, it cannot be said these consecutive but small amounts of tweets are enough to fully realize his whole perspective about this matter. |
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