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So to clear this up, let's talk more specifically about cis characters who pass well as the opposite sex. For now, in the context of anime, not real life. Dusky in your example from SNAFU, does it seem like Hachiman is flirting with the other boy's feminine appearance itself or is there something about their personality they find interesting? If the gender essentialist argument says you'll still be male no matter how well you pass, we fault the show for having a girly cis guy that other boys want to flirt with. Is it playing with the idea that they're only suitable for flirting but serious relationships aren't possible?

To get back to the situation with Hibiki from Strawberry Eggs, a serious relationship between him and his student IS possible (besides the fact she's underage). Like I said, we don't know why she did plus we don't know whether she's in love with idea of Hibiki being male or female. Whether he can hide his maleness is not relevant here because 1) she seems genuinely interested in his character and 2) he's not hiding his maleness to win anyone's love he's only doing it to keep his job. This is why I questioned the applicability of the gender essentialist argument. Alternatively perhaps I'm wrong (and it does apply) because she only fell in love with those "immutable male aspects?" Sorry, maybe I haven't emphasized enough the idea that love is blind to gender and how well I found that Strawberry Eggs conveyed that idea to me.

Past wrote:

Dusky in your example from SNAFU, does it seem like Hachiman is flirting with the other boy's feminine appearance itself or is there something about their personality they find interesting? If the gender essentialist argument says you'll still be male no matter how well you pass, we fault the show for having a girly cis guy that other boys want to flirt with. Is it playing with the idea that they're only suitable for flirting but serious relationships aren't possible?

I am pretty sure he literally said (asked) if Totsuka could cook for him every morning of his life. Arguably the show put a huge amount of chemistry between the two of them, where Hachiman as a dweeb who wouldn't usually be able to get to close to flirting and I would say admitting attraction. But also kind of clearly meant to be a joke about boy be girly, and wouldn't it be great if it was a girl, but is weird instead.

I don't think the character in any official regard outside of imagine spots presented as a girl, rather being generally androgynous. Androgynous characters are cool, but also maybe often a piece of evidence in how characters be treated differently based on sex being different from what would be a part of general gender signifiers.

Past wrote:

So to clear this up, let's talk more specifically about cis characters who pass well as the opposite sex. For now, in the context of anime, not real life. Dusky in your example from SNAFU, does it seem like Hachiman is flirting with the other boy's feminine appearance itself or is there something about their personality they find interesting? If the gender essentialist argument says you'll still be male no matter how well you pass, we fault the show for having a girly cis guy that other boys want to flirt with. Is it playing with the idea that they're only suitable for flirting but serious relationships aren't possible?

I haven't seen SNAFU but otokonoko characters are a horse of an entirely different color.

Quote:

To get back to the situation with Hibiki from Strawberry Eggs, a serious relationship between him and his student IS possible (besides the fact she's underage). Like I said, we don't know why she did plus we don't know whether she's in love with idea of Hibiki being male or female. Whether he can hide his maleness is not relevant here because 1) she seems genuinely interested in his character and 2) he's not hiding his maleness to win her love he's only doing it to keep his job. This is why I questioned the applicability of the gender essentialist argument. Alternatively perhaps I'm wrong (and it does apply) because she only fell in love with those "immutable male aspects?" Sorry, maybe I haven't emphasized enough the idea that love is blind to gender and how well I found that Strawberry Eggs conveyed that idea to me.

Works like Strawberry Eggs don't exist in a vacuum. Part of understanding media is seeing how different works fit into patterns, and Hibiki is just one of a long line of characters that fit this trope, some of which I mentioned before.

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

I haven't seen SNAFU but otokonoko characters are a horse of an entirely different color.

Man how I've proven ATastySub wrong.

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

Works like Strawberry Eggs don't exist in a vacuum. Part of understanding media is seeing how different works fit into patterns, and Hibiki is just one of a long line of characters that fit this trope, some of which I mentioned before.

No offense but this seems like an attempt to misdirect the argument, you know strawman style. Well whatever, I suppose its your reviewer mindset talking. I prefer to give each show and every creator the benefit of the doubt and treat each one on a case by case basis. I could never be a reviewer, I guess.

Past wrote:

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

I haven't seen SNAFU but otokonoko characters are a horse of an entirely different color.

Man how I've proven ATastySub wrong.

Well this sure is an out of left field swipe. I'm guessing you didn't take my original suggestion because Tsun has only continued to reaffirm her original point. You seem to be doing the very strawman thing you're for some reason accusing her of doing when she isn't.

Past wrote:

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

Works like Strawberry Eggs don't exist in a vacuum. Part of understanding media is seeing how different works fit into patterns, and Hibiki is just one of a long line of characters that fit this trope, some of which I mentioned before.

No offense but this seems like an attempt to misdirect the argument, you know strawman style. Well whatever, I suppose its your reviewer mindset talking. I prefer to give each show and every creator the benefit of the doubt and treat each one on a case by case basis. I could never be a reviewer, I guess.

Again, you're projecting a bit here. This entire thread is about understanding trans and gender non-conforming characters. Tsun has explained why Strawberry Eggs doesn't really fall into that category, because it's based on very old gender conformist ideas. It's kin are things like Tootsie and Mrs. Doubtfire. If you got something positive out of that, great! But that doesn't change the history of what it's doing, or the reasons why it was done. I would encourage you to head to Tsun's site, Anime Feminist, and read some of their "My Fave is Problematic" articles because it feels like you're trying to misdirect this conversation to a binary when it's so much more layered than that. As for your weird attack on reviewing at the end there, you're trying to couch your close-mindedness in open-mindedness, against a mindset that requires open-mindedness and which Tsun is trying to explain to you. It's deeply confusing. Yes, Tsun is a reviewer, and as such does give the benefit of the doubt to shows and creators and then, after viewing them, does the appropriate consideration of viewpoints, histories, identities, and so on to the final product they've created. Another thing I encourage you to do as well. I believe anyone has it in them to be a reviewer, because art is about interpretation, and all it takes to be a good reviewer is understand what you're seeing and be able to convey the feelings you've experienced. I will once again circle back to the "My Fave is Problematic" on that, as those articles are very much about explaining those feelings that come from things that also have harmful messaging. So don't give up, and try to see things from the viewpoints of others and understand that things are all interconnected and not made in vacuums, but contain a rich history of humanity behind them.

ATastySub wrote:

This entire thread is about understanding trans and gender non-conforming characters.

To be fair, I started this thread with understanding that not every example of characters who's gender or gender presentation is different from what might assigned, or a lack of conformity to gender, is going to be an insightful or fair examples.

Being transgender as we understand it now, and a lot of people still don't understand it, is quite different from past examples, but I think that even bad examples of characters as crossdressers (for whatever reason) can give some insight. Some are jokes, some are a fetish, but some still maybe had an impact. Creating distinctions is good, while not leaving out because maybe it was just Bugs Bunny tricking Elma Fudd. I am interested personally at trends.

Something not really anime related, but still related by the way of Japanese games, but I am curious of old characters like Birdo from Mario and Poison from Final Fight, both described as transgender characters from the late 80s. They were made to be villainous, with I think Poison was done to make it more acceptable to hit a woman, while "Birdo" in at least the English manual is not exactly sensitive, and did say she preferred Birdetta. I think that there was some amount of Nintendo trying to walk back from some original trans characterisation, ironically at least still in English using what would be her deadname. But I still think that you are seeing reclamation of such characters, at least in fan circles, from changing times.

Past wrote:

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

I haven't seen SNAFU but otokonoko characters are a horse of an entirely different color.

Man how I've proven ATastySub wrong.

What? No you haven't?

Past wrote:

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

Works like Strawberry Eggs don't exist in a vacuum. Part of understanding media is seeing how different works fit into patterns, and Hibiki is just one of a long line of characters that fit this trope, some of which I mentioned before.

No offense but this seems like an attempt to misdirect the argument, you know strawman style. Well whatever, I suppose its your reviewer mindset talking. I prefer to give each show and every creator the benefit of the doubt and treat each one on a case by case basis. I could never be a reviewer, I guess.

You're being weirdly snide and combative here! Absolutely nothing I've said has anything to do with strawman arguments or whether I give shows and creators the benefit of the doubt, unless you are interpreting my saying that Strawberry Eggs is gender essentialist means I think the creators went "MWAHAHAHAHA I WILL USE THIS ANIME TO REINFORCE STEREOTYPES!! TREMBLE BEFORE ME!" Because that's... not how that works. Most subtext, especially around things like gender roles, is unintentional. While there are schools of criticism that entail looking strictly at the text, everything is created within a certain context that includes the social conditions that it was made in and works that both preceded it and its contemporaries.

The essentialist viewpoint applies to Hibiki precisely because he is cis! Fuuko was confused about her feelings about a supposed other woman, but ha ha turns out he was a man and she was heterosexual after all! Transness was not a cultural force the way it is now in 2001; I'd be seriously shocked if it was even remotely a consideration. It's been quite a while since I've seen Strawberry Eggs, but I certainly don't remember anything that would challenge this reading. It would be another thing entirely if, say, Hibiki realized dressing as a woman had awakened something in him, or if Fuuko had embraced the idea of being queer even after learning that Hibiki is a man.

What you call oh-so-snidely called my "reviewer mindset" is just interpreting art using critical thinking and contextual awareness. You seem to think that it makes me mean or robs me of joy when watching or reading something, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. [/b]

Actually... my reviewer comment was totally meant to be a compliment to you, Tsun. So sorry you took it the wrong way. I was picking on you with the strawman comment, but I was mostly "well whatever" meaning don't worry. Don't assume everything is an attack or insult.

Past wrote:

Man how I've proven ATastySub wrong.

Another strawman? No even worse, this was nothing more than clickbait. I've come to enjoy seeing what kind of responses I get from ATastySub, given that, @ATastySub you keep ignoring my requests not to respond. BTW, thanks for the advice!

DuskyPredator wrote:

ATastySub wrote:

This entire thread is about understanding trans and gender non-conforming characters.

To be fair, I started this thread with understanding that not every example of characters who's gender or gender presentation is different from what might assigned, or a lack of conformity to gender, is going to be an insightful or fair examples.

Yes, thank you. This is the point I've been trying to make all along. I also think that Tsun and I are on the same wavelength about unintentional ways things about transness was understood and expressed in early 2000's and before. My point is that Hibiki's crossdressing merely sets up an exploration of relationships and not meant to profoundly reflect the transgender experience. Audiences haven't been exposed enough to that yet, especially Japan. This is why I kept beating the love is blind thing like a dead horse.

[quote="Past"]

DuskyPredator wrote:

I also think that Tsun and I are on the same wavelength about unintentional ways things about transness was understood and expressed in early 2000's and before. My point is that Hibiki's crossdressing merely sets up an exploration of relationships and not meant to profoundly reflect the transgender experience. Audiences haven't been exposed enough to that yet, especially Japan. This is why I kept beating the love is blind thing like a dead horse.

We are absolutely not on the same wavelength. And if you don't think Hibiki has anything to do with transness, I'm not sure why you brought him up in this thread.

Love is not blind. Love, sex, and attraction are all linked in complex ways that vary for every person, and for many, gender figures into that. That's why I keep saying that Fuuko's heterosexuality is reaffirmed when she learns that the "woman" she was attracted to has been a man all along.

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

We are absolutely not on the same wavelength. And if you don't think Hibiki has anything to do with transness, I'm not sure why you brought him up in this thread.

Love is not blind. Love, sex, and attraction are all linked in complex ways that vary for every person, and for many, gender figures into that. That's why I keep saying that Fuuko's heterosexuality is reaffirmed when she learns that the "woman" she was attracted to has been a man all along.

To repeat, this thread is about trans and gender non-conforming characters. My largest hope was that we could get some highlights of characters that would likely be transgender, those would be top tier characters to discuss. But I was under no illusion that especially in the past, perceptions of what might be traits of a trans person, were really of something like a person playing dress-up as the other gender. That those perceptions may have filtered into fiction like anime to create these sorts of characters are dressing up as a gender for whatever reason. Whether it is some insidious thing about trying to trick people, or maybe a story that tried to be more nuanced by making another example, such as maybe they it is a part of their career.

I think that we can all admit here that there is a difference between sex, gender and gender presentation. But dislike it as much as you like, in fandom and the creators of shows, they do have takes that can essentialise these things, and why you can have people debating on characters in and the differing interpretations.

As uncomfortable of elements of a story of what might almost be queerbaiting of showing a girl confused over an attraction to a woman, only to vindicate it is a man. How does that do for a guy forced to dress like a girl and suddenly all the boys are drooling over him? There are a whole lot of characters that are written to just be especially androgynous, don't go out of their way to look like the opposite gender, I am sure they fit in here somehow too. And I myself can get frustrated with some of these characters can kind of be used as an example that they are just their assigned gender, and they just try so hard to be seen as that assigned gender. Even though some of these can be accidentally progressive as something like the trans experience, or something like Hideyoshi from Baka Test where he just kind of ends up people assigning him to a non-binary gender.

I would make the argument that any real character that can bend these perceptions of male and female as they would be assigned, is worth a discussion for how trans people can be seen, or separate from it. Myself, I have been a fan of Pretty Boy Detective Club, which has its fair of crossdressing, the female lead having spent a majority of the run dressed as a boy, and that gender non-conforming element is probably fine to talk about. Even making a contrast to Ouran High Host Club, where arguments are possibly there that Haruhi might be some form of non-binary from her lack of caring what gender people see her as.

Keep it civil and forgo the snide & passive aggressive comments please.

[quote="all-tsun-and-no-dere"]

Past wrote:

DuskyPredator wrote:

I also think that Tsun and I are on the same wavelength about unintentional ways things about transness was understood and expressed in early 2000's and before. My point is that Hibiki's crossdressing merely sets up an exploration of relationships and not meant to profoundly reflect the transgender experience. Audiences haven't been exposed enough to that yet, especially Japan. This is why I kept beating the love is blind thing like a dead horse.

We are absolutely not on the same wavelength. And if you don't think Hibiki has anything to do with transness, I'm not sure why you brought him up in this thread.

Love is not blind. Love, sex, and attraction are all linked in complex ways that vary for every person, and for many, gender figures into that. That's why I keep saying that Fuuko's heterosexuality is reaffirmed when she learns that the "woman" she was attracted to has been a man all along.

In all fairness, I was the first one (I think) who brought the series into discussion.
At any rate, I read the topic as one about characters who do not conform to traditional gender roles- and crossdressing (or living part of your life as a woman) definitely fits into her. For characters to reaffirm their masculinity/femininity/heterosexuality, whichever applies, is a thing not uncommon in life. The opposite, where a character's views of who they are or love are challenged may not happen enough in anime or media in general, but at the same time, it's a real life scenario where people experiment with their sexiality only to find out the experimentations did not suit them, and it's a natural process.
I am not ignoring the fact that the point of the anime was to attract a specific audience and fill in certain expectations, but then I also don't think approaching a title from 2001, you can expect this much.

I feel a little embarrassed after just watching the 12th episode of the second season of Welcome to Demon School! Iruma-kun, to have me actually question the gender of a character called Opera. Opera has been kind of set up as a butler like servant to the titular character's adoptive grandfather and a sort of caretaker to him. I had kind of defaulted to calling Opera "he", based on their dress, but only this past episode did I realise their androgyny seems to be an inherent part of their character, and the show never actually confirmed their gender.

The episode in question showed Opera wearing a mix of male and female uniforms, which I guess just made me realise that Opera must be non-binary. (Nyan-binary if you will)

I think non-binary characters can be difficult to portray in anime. You have so many male characters who are flamboyant or effeminate in their appearance and you can argue that's just their style, not really an overt expression of gender that differs from their assigned sex. Take the average bishonen, its an aesthetic of male beauty that differs from the traditionally masculine aesthetic of a muscular or large build. Likewise can be true of female characters like Revy from Black Lagoon; the tough, badass girl archetype that you generally don't view as anything but 100 percent woman.

Does this extend to androgynous, or gender ambiguous characters? Well I think unless its revealed from the character or through the story that someone is non-binary, we are potentially misgendering them by saying "they must be non-binary." Because of how gender expression in anime is so much more vibrant, diverse, and unhinged from things we take for granted in real-life, ascribing a gender identity to a character could be a bit presumptuous (with non-binary being no less a legitimate gender identity than transwoman, transman or cis).

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