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So what does everybody think of the fan pandering genre known as moe. I for one have to take it on a case by case basis ex: I can deal with the moe in air but if you try to make me watch moetan I just might scream. Even more then that why does a girl have to be submissive and docile or aggressive and overbearing to be popular. I already know the whole thing about the "ideal asian woman" but all the guys in japan (or every anime fan) can't possibly like that type of woman because everybody has their own personality no matter how reserved you are taught to be. I don't think that that is the whole reason for moe. I know It's a hot topic for anime fans right now so what do you think?

Much like you, I take moe on a case by case basis. For instance, the Mikuru (from Haruhi Suzumiya) kind of moe is pretty funny and has its cute moments. That kind of moe I can really find endearing after a while. It's subtle, yet energetic, zany, though not too over-the-top, and has an overall feel-good experience to it (also see Chiyo-chan from Azumanga Daioh).

But my views on moe became DRASTICALLY changed after I saw Air (TV). Kamiya Misuzu is the God-awful worst character written around forced sympathy and needless cutifiying mannerisms that I've ever bear witness to in anime. I used to think you could never get that over-the-top cutesy with an anime character, but this just sickened me to no avail. And because of her, I refuse to watch any Kyo-Ani productions involving even the slightest hint of these types of characters. I will literally feel the need to punch something, and with a tremendous amount of rage gathered into my knuckles.

In the end, though, I suppose it just depends on the source material of the story. Haruhi is supposed to be funny, Air is supposed to be sad and melodramatic. Maybe that's what it is? Perhaps I just see moe as being more of a comedic device. Whereas in those more serious titles, it just doesn't gel as well.

Tony K. wrote:

But my views on moe became DRASTICALLY changed after I saw Air (TV).

When I saw "moe" on the index page with the last post written by "Tony K." I told myself, "poor Misuzu-chin is gonna get bashed again." Anime catgrin + sweatdrop

Tony K. wrote:

But my views on moe became DRASTICALLY changed after I saw Air (TV). Kamiya Misuzu is the God-awful worst character written around forced sympathy and needless cutifiying mannerisms that I've ever bear witness to in anime. I used to think you could never get that over-the-top cutesy with an anime character, but this just sickened me to no avail. And because of her, I refuse to watch any Kyo-Ani productions involving even the slightest hint of these types of characters. I will literally feel the need to punch something, and with a tremendous amount of rage gathered into my knuckles.

In the end, though, I suppose it just depends on the source material of the story. Haruhi is supposed to be funny, Air is supposed to be sad and melodramatic. Maybe that's what it is? Perhaps I just see moe as being more of a comedic device. Whereas in those more serious titles, it just doesn't gel as well.

I don't think that Air was great for one reason, the moe. If Misuzu wasn't such a cute character, it would've been 10 times better, moe in general just bugs the sh!t out of me. They're never cute, they're just annoying. Asahina in Haruhi is the worst character in the show by far because of the moe. I know its suppose to be funny, but i just don't get that effect from her character.

I'm not a big fan of the sickeningly cute, pandering moe, but I've got a real soft spot for the old-school moe characters like Lain from Serial Experiments Lain, and even the more recent Miyako from Ghost Hound. The girls are still cute and make you feel protective towards them, but they can still stand on their own two feet. Kohane-chan from xxxHoLic Kei is another good example of non-irritating, 'genuine' moe - she's sweet and instills feelings of protectiveness (which is the core concept behind moe, right?), but she's not so utterly helpless that you just want to punch her in the face.

I had this incredible urge to just strangle mikuru she's so annoying. I would have enjoyed air a lot more if mizuru wasn't the main character. Maybe minagi would have been better.

Moe, for me, like other themes and art forms, is extremely case-based on how it works.
My first encounter with it was Mikuru, and at that time, I didn't even know what moe was. It's a great way to develop Mikuru as a character, because her stu-stu-stuttering and her unsecurity are just two simple characteristics, which still make her stand out a lot and suffice totally for 13 episodes.
Of course, there is also moe found in Gunslinger Girl. This worked extremely well for me, because it describes the main conflict of the series also visually. They are normal girls, they look like them, they are even cute, but in reality, they are killer machines. In a way, you also feel as if you had to protect them, like Murasakisuishou said.

And there's Kanon and Air. In fact, the moe made it really hard for me to watch Kanon, and I'm not further than the first episode of Air.
There is no way silly tripping or random "ticks" develop a character better, it's just stupid, unnecessary and makes me angry.

really depends on how it's handled. there's a different between making moe character designs, and just flat out appeasing otaku. for instance i loved Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni, and that would definitely be considered moe by most. however shows like Strike Witches and Moetan make it clear that some studios are just scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I usually avoid series with moe, unless it is comedy, in this respect my opinion is similar to Tony K.'s opinion. I don't mind moe in series such as Lucky Star, but in series that are supposed to be serious those girls are utterly annoying. Higurashi is a notable exception, the girls' psychopathic laughter, behaviour and an excellent story was a sufficient compensation.

I also noticed that moe girls sometimes have a sickeningly cute voice that makes me want to puke. However, what annoys me the most are series where moe girls make impression of mentally handicapped. This is one of the reasons why I hate Elfen Lied and Chobits.

zanarkand princess wrote:

So what does everybody think of the fan pandering genre known as moe. I for one have to take it on a case by case basis ex: I can deal with the moe in air but if you try to make me watch moetan I just might scream. Even more than that why does a girl have to be submissive and docile or aggressive and overbearing to be popular?

* I don't think that "moe" is a genre. Just because several series share the same element, it doesn't make them the same genre. Take"Giant Robots," for instance. Would you say that Evangelion, Godannar, Kirameki Project, Mazinger Z, Gundam Wing, Gravion, Magic Knight Rayearth, Burst Angel, and Maze: The Megaburst Space are the "same genre" just because they happen to have giant piloted robots? Same way with moe, it's not a genre, it's an element. An element that can come up across various genres. Of course with moe the tearjerker/romance and parody/comedy are the most common, but have you ever heard of a show called "E's Otherwise"? It's a shounen/superpowers series in the vein of s-CRY-ed, but one of its characters (Asuka Tokugawa) definitely qualifies as "so moe I'm gonna die." Does that put it in the illusive "moe" genre? I'm sure certain people like Tyrenol would disagree.

* What's the crime in being "fan-pandering"? If it means "presenting things in a way such that they appeal to a certain portion of a fanbase in hopes of making said fans buy the product," then I suppose moe is guilty as charged. But it's hardly the fan-pandering genre as you're classifying it. Aren't things like ultraviolence/exploding heads, mountains of otaku/culture references (which can be done without moe, see Excel Saga), hordes of homoerotically-affectionate bishounen, or the aforementioned giant robots also efforts by creators to appeal to certain sectors of the fanbase to entice them to buy product? I don't dispute that moe is fan-pandering, but it's not significantly more so than any other trend in the anime medium. Or is something only "fan-pandering" if it's doing something that the speaker doesn't like?

* Who's trying to make you watch moetan? Your friend/roommate? People on the Internet who live thousands of miles away from you? I know you just mean it as an example, but how do Moetan and other moemoe series affect you simply by existing? Why not live and let live?

* Why the personality extremes in popular girls? Because girls that fall in the middle of the submissive-aggressive and sweet-sour spectra could be classified as normal, average, or "boring." (In terms of popularity/marketability, of course, not real life!) Take To Heart, one of the first major "based on romance game" anime. The heroine and "main girl" was supposed to be the sweet, gentle childhood friend character, Akari Kamigishi. But she was far overshadowed by Multi the robot girl, who was much more moe due to her innocence, clumsiness, speech affectations, and artificial nature. Deactivation / memory-erasure for robot girls are very reliable tearjerker staples, after all.

Zalis116 wrote:

* I don't think that "moe" is a genre. Just because several series share the same element, it doesn't make them the same genre. Take"Giant Robots," for instance. Would you say that Evangelion, Godannar, Kirameki Project, Mazinger Z, Gundam Wing, Gravion, Magic Knight Rayearth, Burst Angel, and Maze: The Megaburst Space are the "same genre" just because they happen to have giant piloted robots? Same way with moe, it's not a genre, it's an element. An element that can come up across various genres. Of course with moe the tearjerker/romance and parody/comedy are the most common, but have you ever heard of a show called "E's Otherwise"? It's a shounen/superpowers series in the vein of s-CRY-ed, but one of its characters (Asuka Tokugawa) definitely qualifies as "so moe I'm gonna die." Does that put it in the illusive "moe" genre? I'm sure certain people like Tyrenol would disagree.

Sure you can have moe characters in an otherwise non-moe anime. However does it also not sometimes take such a central focus that it can be described as the "genre" of the anime just as much as those you described? In fact, mecha is a very good example of the same thing. Not every anime with mecha in it is a mecha anime. However there are plenty of anime where the mecha are a primary enough focus that it can be effectively grouped and described as "mecha anime".

Quote:

* What's the crime in being "fan-pandering"? If it means "presenting things in a way such that they appeal to a certain portion of a fanbase in hopes of making said fans buy the product," then I suppose moe is guilty as charged. But it's hardly the fan-pandering genre as you're classifying it. Aren't things like ultraviolence/exploding heads, mountains of otaku/culture references (which can be done without moe, see Excel Saga), hordes of homoerotically-affectionate bishounen, or the aforementioned giant robots also efforts by creators to appeal to certain sectors of the fanbase to entice them to buy product? I don't dispute that moe is fan-pandering, but it's not significantly more so than any other trend in the anime medium. Or is something only "fan-pandering" if it's doing something that the speaker doesn't like?

Well there is a difference between fan-pandering and appealing to fans of certain types of anime. I'd definitely put mecha and references in the ladder. Perhaps extreme violence depending on the context. The difference to me lies in the substance of what is being provided. There really isn't any great complexity to appealing to fans through things such as moe as well as some of the things you mentioned such as fanservice, or bishounen. That makes it pandering. There is no actual substance or quality to it. Moe is by no means the only case of pandering but I still think it is a weak and transparent appeal without actual quality.

It's fine in small doses, but usually annoying to me in large ones generally. Some of it is cute, too much of it is repulsive.

Zalis116 wrote:

Why the personality extremes in popular girls? Because girls that fall in the middle of the submissive-aggressive and sweet-sour spectra could be classified as normal, average, or "boring." (In terms of popularity/marketability, of course, not real life!)

Surely if that were so, the same personality types would dominate all mediums of entertainment - literature, film, theatre, non-Japanese comics and so on and so forth?
Even if we were to presume that it held true only in terms of Japanese entertainment as a result of cultural differences, the same personality types would dominate (non-otaku orientated) Japanese novels and films but I can't say it's something I've noticed being present in the Japanese media I've seen besides anime and some manga.

I have trouble accepting the idea that the only way to make a female character interesting or marketable is to shoehorn her into one of two extreme, one-dimensional character archetypes.

Did you find the main female characters of Kino's Journey, GitS or every Ghibli or Kon film ever made to be boring and unmarketable?

Quote:

What's the crime in being "fan-pandering"?

I wouldn't say it was a crime - it just implies that artistic integrity or vision has taken a back seat to marketing (and, by extension, that the audience is being defined by its lowest common denominators).

Whether or not that's a bad thing (and, if so, how bad a thing it is) is an entirely subjective question.

I'll admit that "cute girls you feel sorry for" is a method of fan pandering, but so are battle sequences in a mecha anime. I would disagree with the notion that moe is definitively the weaker element, as like other common themes moe only becomes annoying when the direction is clichéd and unoriginal.
Even when it is however I am likely to fall for the moe characters- the lack of realism in the romance and melodrama seems to act more in a show's favour if it's trying to evoke empathy in me. I cannot quite put my finger on why though.

Tony K. wrote:

I will literally feel the need to punch something, and with a tremendous amount of rage gathered into my knuckles.

zanarkand princess wrote:

I had this incredible urge to just strangle mikuru she's so annoying.

Aylinn wrote:

I also noticed that moe girls sometimes have a sickeningly cute voice that makes me want to puke.

Folks, folks, folks.... you really need to grow the Hell up. What is the point of all this rage and vitriol over a piece of animation? Nobody is forcing you to watch it, so if it bugs you, stop.

But you don't do that, do you?

No.

Instead, you watch it, and then you spew your pointless anger all over the forums.

Very, very mature of you.

Zalis116 wrote:

* What's the crime in being "fan-pandering"? If it means "presenting things in a way such that they appeal to a certain portion of a fanbase in hopes of making said fans buy the product," then I suppose moe is guilty as charged. But it's hardly the fan-pandering genre as you're classifying it. Aren't things like ultraviolence/exploding heads, mountains of otaku/culture references (which can be done without moe, see Excel Saga), hordes of homoerotically-affectionate bishounen, or the aforementioned giant robots also efforts by creators to appeal to certain sectors of the fanbase to entice them to buy product? I don't dispute that moe is fan-pandering, but it's not significantly more so than any other trend in the anime medium. Or is something only "fan-pandering" if it's doing something that the speaker doesn't like?

* Who's trying to make you watch moetan? Your friend/roommate? People on the Internet who live thousands of miles away from you? I know you just mean it as an example, but how do Moetan and other moemoe series affect you simply by existing? Why not live and let live?

Exactly so, Zalis has the right idea here.

There is no obligation to watch each and every anime. I generally take a peek at most series, but I feel no worries about dropping them if they don't appeal to me. If I find them truly awful (Weiss Kreuz or Battle Programmer Shirase, for instance), I may occasionally mention them as solid examples of the low end of the quality spectrum in anime. But this kind of exaggerated, childish rage? Never.

What do you gain from these hysterics? Why not relax a bit and... what was it again... oh, yes: grow up.

- abunai

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