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Hey, Answerman! [2006-08-04]


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burzmali



Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:34 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
I like how everybody here has become an instant expert in the field of psychology.

Mass intelligence upgrade? Subliminal classes taught through staring at ANN's banner ads? I'd like to see the tuition fees before I enroll in this lofty new technological endeavor.

.
.
.

Oh, and a pedophile isn't a criminal. A child molester/abuser/solicitor/rapist is a criminal. If somebody THINKS about something, no matter how henious you find it, it's not a crime. To persecute a person for their thoughts is Orwellian and scary.

But that's just my opinion.


I like how everybody here has become an instant expert in the field of law.

Mass intelligence upgrade? Subliminal classes taught through staring at ANN's banner ads? I'd like to see the tuition fees before I enroll in this lofty new technological endeavor.

btw, should we be letting everyone arrested for possession with the intent to distribute and conspiracy to commit charges out of prison? Technically, they are only thinking about a crime.
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ThirdWizard



Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 42
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:11 pm Reply with quote
Mint Mania IIDX wrote:
I posted in a forum that I feel is very credible on this subject this very post:


And thus the problem with Zac's entire argument concerning non-H titles. He made a snap decision based on his own perception of a show. Just like the people who think anime is all just for kids or that all anime is a cross between Ninja Scroll and Overfiend. He did the exact same thing. No fact checking. No asking people who have seen the anime. No attempt to get first hand knowledge of what he was talking about. It has little kids and its aimed at adults, so it has to be sexual in some way. And when called on it, his first response was not to listen to anyone who had actually seen the anime, it was to dismiss their ideas and cling to his own completely unsubstantiated propoganda.

It's sad.
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Mint Mania IIDX



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 77
Location: Central
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:12 pm Reply with quote
burzmali wrote:
I like how everybody here has become an instant expert in the field of law.

Mass intelligence upgrade? Subliminal classes taught through staring at ANN's banner ads? I'd like to see the tuition fees before I enroll in this lofty new technological endeavor.

btw, should we be letting everyone arrested for possession with the intent to distribute and conspiracy to commit charges out of prison? Technically, they are only thinking about a crime.

You seriously stopped making sense a page or two ago. I think you're just arguing for the sake of argument.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:13 pm Reply with quote
ThirdWizard wrote:
No fact checking. No asking people who have seen the anime. No attempt to get first hand knowledge of what he was talking about. It has little kids and its aimed at adults, so it has to be sexual in some way. And when called on it, his first response was not to listen to anyone who had actually seen the anime, it was to dismiss their ideas and cling to his own completely unsubstantiated propoganda.

It's sad.


You're turning into an unreasonable person pretty quickly.

I saw the marketing materials. I watched an episode of the show. I know how Japanese marketing works.

The SHOW ITSELF might not actually BE lolicon material but the way it's SOLD is, and you can't deny that. Again, LOOK AT THE MARKETING MATERIALS. I'm not really talking about the content of the show, I'm talking about the way the show is presented.

A lot of you have a very bad habit of not really listening; you just rephrase what I said until it matches something you can argue against.

You want to sit there and sling all the mud you can about how I didn't "do any research" or whatever but you're completely wrong and the way you "dissected" my argument there shows that you weren't listening to me in the first place.

Anyway this thread has become yet another endless whinefest. As stated in the column and in this thread, that's the final time Lolicon will be mentioned in the column for the forseeable future. The idea was to get it all out of our systems now so it doesn't become yet another thing people complain about me "talking about too much" (even though including it in TWO columns total has prompted a bunch of other people to tell me that they're "sick of hearing me talk about it").

We'll have another hot-button issue next time but this one is over for now. Maybe the next issue won't be as obnoxious as this one, nor will it prompt so many staunch defenders to suddenly come out of the woodwork and repeat the same arguments over and over and over and over and over again.
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epixeltwin



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 325
Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:40 pm Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
I like how everybody here has become an instant expert in the field of psychology.

Mass intelligence upgrade? Subliminal classes taught through staring at ANN's banner ads? I'd like to see the tuition fees before I enroll in this lofty new technological endeavor.

What sort of "sickness" a person who enjoys lolicon is up for debate - but not by a bunch of otaku on an internet message board. Most of us are sputtering morons who can barely string together two sentences to express our opinion of Japanese cartoons. And now suddenly we're all PHDs and experts on both Japanese culture and the fields of sociology and criminology. Get over yourselves.

It's hilarious how the majority of the "debate" on this subject in this thread is simply the reiteration of one's base reaction to lolicon and hardly rooted in logic. Then, of course, we have the grammar-deficiant trolls and the newbies who simply post to say how "sick" lolicon fans are and "How can anyone possibly defend it?"

Free speech isn't just defending the speech or expressions that you like.

Lolicon is drawings. Drawings. Whatever sort of "action" these drawings inspire is a symptom of a deeper issue, and not the catalyst itself. Nobody's being abused or exploited in lolicon, and while it does paint a picture of anime as being sort of "skeevy", that's just a price of the fandom.

Oh, and a pedophile isn't a criminal. A child molester/abuser/solicitor/rapist is a criminal. If somebody THINKS about something, no matter how henious you find it, it's not a crime. To persecute a person for their thoughts is Orwellian and scary.

But that's just my opinion.


First: You're acting too smart for your own good

Second: Images and thoughts are different. Child Porn =/= thoughts about children.

Third: Yeah, it's goddamned drawings. anyways, screw this debate, let everyone do what they want and that's that.
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ThirdWizard



Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 42
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:00 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

You're turning into an unreasonable person pretty quickly.


You're right. I appolgise. I'm having a very very bad week, but that's not excuse for personal attacks of that nature.

Suffice to say, I don't personally see how that show could be seen as loli-con material, and I think, from my own experiences, that the vast majority of people who watch it are not attracted to loli-con in a sexual way.

As for marketing, I ignore it for the most part (and I don't live in Japan so I haven't seen any advertisements for Higurashi. In any case, the creators don't market. Execs who went to school to learn how to lie to people to manipulate them marketed the show. LOST lies to us every week in its previews. Tsukuyomi Moon Phase's intro is a fap-fest for loli-con lovers. It's a shame, and I admit that, and I wish that would stop. But, that doesn't mean I wouldn't want something awesome like Higurashi to be made in the first place.
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PantsGoblin
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
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Location: L.A.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:10 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I saw the marketing materials. I watched an episode of the show. I know how Japanese marketing works.

The SHOW ITSELF might not actually BE lolicon material but the way it's SOLD is, and you can't deny that. Again, LOOK AT THE MARKETING MATERIALS. I'm not really talking about the content of the show, I'm talking about the way the show is presented.


I was in Japan in May, I saw a bunch of posters and ads for the the show in Akiba, 90% of them featured Rena (who is not loli) giving a creepy face and looking all insane. All of the marketing I've seen has been focused on the horror elements. What marketing materials were you looking at?

Zac wrote:
A lot of you have a very bad habit of not really listening; you just rephrase what I said until it matches something you can argue against.


The same can be said for both sides.
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:03 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I saw the marketing materials. I watched an episode of the show. I know how Japanese marketing works.

You do? Shocked So what determines the way the show works is based entirely on one episode?
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:07 pm Reply with quote
fighterholic wrote:

You do? Shocked So what determines the way the show works is based entirely on one episode?


Are you under the impression that you have to watch an entire film or multiple episodes of a television series to understand how that show or film is being sold?

Because they're two totally different things. I apologize if you don't know what "marketing" is and how that affects public perception of what something is before they see it.

PantsGoblin wrote:


The same can be said for both sides.


I'm sorry, does your argument not boil down to "lolicon is totally fine and we should be able to shout that from the rooftops"?

Because ultimately I feel that's a destructive, selfish and ignorant viewpoint, one that is ultimately unfair to the entire anime community.
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:13 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I'm sorry, does your argument not boil down to "lolicon is totally fine and we should be able to shout that from the rooftops"?

Because ultimately I feel that's a destructive, selfish and ignorant viewpoint, one that is ultimately unfair to the entire anime community.

No it is not totally fine, but there is, and always will be two sides to this argument. Which is what has created 60 pages of people saying it's right and wrong, people calling other perverts and so on. I will ask you Zac, do you like what you're seeing so far?
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ThirdWizard



Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 42
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:35 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

I'm sorry, does your argument not boil down to "lolicon is totally fine and we should be able to shout that from the rooftops"?


Here's my position... Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is as much loli-con anime as Full House is made for pedophiles. If you have any proof to the contrary, please use that actual proof to enlighten us. Right now, even the marketing thing is a he-said-she-said sort of thing. Higurashi uses the "kids are creepy" angle for using child characters, not the "kids are sexy" angle.

What about Hagu in Honey & Clover? The two kids in xxxHolic? Azumanga Daioh? I wouldn't think those anime are bad, even though a guy may get funny looks buying Azumanga Daioh. He'll get funny looks buying Kare Kano as well (I know from experience).

Now, a good debate would be whether Puni Puni Poemy is loli-con (which I don't think qualifies, others may disagree) or Doruku-chan is loli-con (which I think is, others may disagree) and compare and contrast to figure out a better way of determining intent and execution in relation to loli-con material.
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Mint Mania IIDX



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 77
Location: Central
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:38 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
I'm sorry, does your argument not boil down to "lolicon is totally fine and we should be able to shout that from the rooftops"?

We should be able to shout that. That doesn't mean it's a good idea, because throwing anything in people's faces is obnoxious and stupid.
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fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:50 pm Reply with quote
ThirdWizard wrote:
Now, a good debate would be whether Puni Puni Poemy is loli-con (which I don't think qualifies, others may disagree) or Doruku-chan is loli-con (which I think is, others may disagree) and compare and contrast to figure out a better way of determining intent and execution in relation to loli-con material.

More like Poemy would have a little yuri in it also. So it might fall under both, however, no sexual contact was commited against any of the female characters (save for the people in the background).
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Wolverine Princess



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1100
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:11 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
There's no getting around the stigma that watching something like Higurashi no whatever means you're attracted to little girls.

I've been trying really hard to avoid posting in this terrible mess of a thread, but this caught my eye. I'm not going to pick a fight, but I'd like to explain how the show works, since seeing only the first episode of this show and labeling it a loli harem is a common mistake and it's totally understandable how you came to this conclusion. I thought the same thing myself until I watched a few more episodes.

Quote:
I watched an episode of the show.

This is one show where you can NOT base the entire series on one episode. I've only seen up to the ninth episode so I don't know if it eventually changes, but I'm this is the basic gist of how the show works.

The series is split up into story arcs of four episodes each. The first episode of every arc starts out with a couple of seconds of something really painful looking happening. Someone gets hacked to pieces, old people find a rotting body in the sewers, you get the picture. The rest of the episode is a painfully bad comedy episode that looks like it came from some ghastly harem anime. The final seconds of the first episode always contain something "mysterious" happening, like a creepy little girl waving a knife around or something along the lines of that. Over the following two episodes get increasingly creepier. This is where the comedy element disappears and the mystery comes into play. The fourth and final episode of the arc is a full-out horror fest, and I assure you that you WILL be a least a little scared. I watched the fourth ep by myself in a dark kitchen around midnight and actually had to sleep with a nightlight because it freaked me out so much. I guarantee you won't think of these girls as loli bait after seeing at least the third episode. They're scary, psychotic little lunatics, and they make ugly faces that would make babies cry.

And the reason this show aired late at night isn't because so that the pedos could masturbate in peace and quite. Just like how watching horror movies in the middle of the day robs them of their creepy aesthetic, this is a show that was meant to be watched alone in a dark room at midnight.

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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:31 pm Reply with quote
Wolverine Princess wrote:

This is one show where you can NOT base the entire series on one episode.


I didn't say that I'm "basing the entire series"

Which doesn't make any sense, by the way - I think you meant to say "basing your opinion of the series"

on the one episode.

If you're expecting the media as a whole to accept your deeply complicated explanations of why it is you're watching 8-year olds in skimpy dresses do suggestive things all while supporting a "totally awesome storyline that has NOTHING to do with kiddie porn!", you're mistaken.

Again, I don't CARE what your explanation is. I don't care what you think people SHOULD think or SHOULD do. We live on Planet Earth in a place called Reality and if you don't understand how public perception, marketing, and the news media work, then there's absolutely no convincing you of what is actually wrong with all of this.
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