Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - The Dying Breeds
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RestLessone
Posts: 1426 Location: New York |
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Runaways hasn't ended; it's on a hiatus so it can be retooled. http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=23068. I understand if it isn't for everyone. I more or less just get annoyed when people a) make blanket statements about American comics being never-ending superhero serials and b) act as though the quality of even the never-ending titles is terrible and produced by money-grubbing con artists. American comics aren't a lesser form, just different in their scope and audience. While a great number of manga handle topics better than several American comics, manga also fails where Am. comics thrive. Let's not forget that manga artists have done stories in the vein of a traditional American comic tale, even creating versions of Spiderman, Batman, and such characters. And American comics have been influence by manga. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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Isn't that by a British/English guy? Also that was more of an 'original' tale. Not a Marvel/DC hero like Batman or Spider-Man. You'll never see Batman end.
It's interesting you cite Runaways, because Runaways was one of the few superhero comics I read for a bit during my one year of trying out American comics. It's a good example of why I dislike them. The first series was alright; they run away, beat their parents and stop them, and all is right. Outside some forced shoe-horn crossovers with other Marvel heroes I didn't know but apparently was expected to, it was okay. The problem stems when they realized they could bring it back and milk it to high heck. Now they're acting like the X-Men or any other superhero group who stop crime; where they originally didn't fight crime (well, I think they stopped like a store robbery they were at one time, but that's it), also crossover with other heroes (some other teenage group of heroes I remember; also a tie in with that one crossover event that was going on at the time.. House of M I think?). Kill off characters, make drastic changes, either due to editorial shifts, new writers, or whatever, and it became a completely mess and ruined the series. And that's fine if those writers want to make a Batman issue they love, but it's not really the same as someone making a manga. I mean, they want to make a Batman VS Joker storyline, well, what' going to come out of it? Nothing really drastic can happen because they need to make it so other writers can later on make their own Batman VS Joker storyline (or even if they do, other writers can just go back and say 'Nah, that didn't happen, he was faking his death' or 'He wasn't really evil, just mind controlled' so it makes you wonder why bother reading that one specific Batman VS Joker story. I can't see how you can put genuine heart into something you don't own, and will more than likely be altered by someone else and reconnected away in a year. |
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RestLessone
Posts: 1426 Location: New York |
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Alan Moore is British, yes, but I consider that besides the point, as DC is an American company. It's an "original tale"...That just so happened to be a serialization of smaller comic books about a group of superheros published by DC. None of them are "huge" on the level of Batman, but they are still superheroes whose tale ended. That's why I used it as an example. Also, keep in mind that all comics were, at one point, an original tale. The first comic revolving around a masked superhero (The Clock) hasn't been revived in ages, and when it did, it was entirely different from the original. Those characters are all in public domain now.
And that right here is a problem. You admit that you don't "see" or understand how someone can when it's entirely possible to dedicate your life to it. It's about putting your own spin on it. The characters have probably had a deep impact already. Despite not being yours, they are handled with care because they are an icon, deeply ingrained, a high influence. And your posts still do not acknowledge the several series that are either not about superheros or are but end nicely. Would you at least contend that? You can't cherry pick and call some "original stories," but they still count as titles that don't fit your broad blanket statements. |
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doctordoom85
Posts: 2093 |
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Okay, here's where I stand on American comics since I think my comments might have gotten misinterpreted a little. I don't hate all of American comics. Some of the "arcs" or contained stories are extremely good. The problem is that it's hard to feel any sense of satisfying closure with these characters. Even if they get a satisfying death or some sort of retirement, inevitably they will return within a decade. Sure, I could find some good story arc that would seem like a good "ending" for Spider-man, for example, but I'll still know in the back of my mind that this character will go on to make one of the most idiotic decisions of all time. It really kills any enjoyment of the overall stories of these characters when crap like "One More Day", "Ultimatum", "Countdown to Final Crisis", etc. and various authors such as Chuck Austen's moronic run on the X-men series or the morons who wrote Spidey's Clone Saga take a piss on all the characters you love. Not even the worse arcs in shonen have EVER come close to pissing me off as much as some of these.
See, if a manga ends, sure one can make the argument that "they had more story, but we don't need to know it". That's because no one DOES know it (fanfiction doesn't count obviously). Comic books don't get this (or more likely, can't financially afford to "get it"), and inevitably Superman, Batman, Spider-man, etc. will never be able to make that argument since their stories will continue to be told indefinitely. I'm a little more forgiving towards Batman in this regard, since the "fighting a war that he'll never be able to ultimately end" is actually acknowledged as a tragic side of the character. Of course, in perhaps an amusing subversion, The Dark Knight Returns (NOT Strikes Again) actually does serve as a good (if technically non-canon) ending to the story, and I can just pretend that any of the crap they pull with the character every now and then isn't relevant, because ultimately TDKR is where it all ends up and actually does the "the story ends, but their journey will continue" legitimately and in a solid way. Sadly, no other character/team has been given this sort of justice. There have been attempts, but we end up with crap like "X-men: The End" which made so little sense even David Lynch wouldn't know what to make of it. And of course, we have excellent series that work completely on their own and have endings, such as Vertigo titles, Sandman, Preacher, Bone, etc. Plenty of solid stuff. However, in terms of the long-runners themselves, I don't think it's too hard to understand why I generally prefer Japan's long-runners over America's. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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"Handled with care" seems questionable, though. I see a lot of fans complain about what goes on with comics. I know a lot of people hated that One More Day thing with Spider-Man selling his marriage to the devil, for example. Just seems odd that you can say that when other writers do things like that to those very same characters.
Well I'm talking about superhero comics, specifically, since they make up 99% of the market. I know there's non superhero comics, but the original comparison was 'One Piece and other long running shounen are no different than Spider-Man' which I found erroneous. |
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YotaruVegeta
Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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RestlessOne, I don't think it's closed minded to say that American comics don't end. I think that if marvel and DC could have every title they launch last nearly a century like Superman has, they would. Mainstream titles, at least, have what it takes to make a series go on forever.
I do think people need to learn that the indie world of American comics looks similar to the manga titles. It's not all 900 issue series and shared universes. doctordoom85, who needs closure? If a concept can sustain itself for generations, is that so bad a thing? I love the creator-owned concentration of Japanese comics, but I love the franchise-y writer-for-hire storytelling of the Spider-mans and Batmans out there. |
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doctordoom85
Posts: 2093 |
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I don't think I said I need full closure, as in every little detail needs to be addressed and resolved. I'm with David Chase when he shakes his head at all those people who won't shut up about what happened to the Russian in the Sopranos. However, I love solid endings. A solid ending, whether it be happy, bittersweet, or downer, as long as it's well-written, lets one sit down with a smile and a feeling of closure. It's a damn good feeling. Why you would actually question why I would want to feel that way? And as I said earlier, the comic book industry is actually capable of wrapping these characters' stories up. That's the sad thing, they have the potential to do this, but they don't. As I said earlier, Dark Knight Returns works wonderfully as a conclusion to the story of Batman. Hell, Kingdom Come works well as a conclusion to the whole freakin' world of DC. And they even manage to do it with more obscure characters, such as the decent ending to X-Statix. I'm fine with a long story, as long as eventually there is guarantee that it will have an ending. I love One Piece and don't say, "man, I sure hope this wraps up soon", but I can only say that because Oda WILL end it one day. I can't say the same for Superman, Spider-man, X-men, etc. because the comic book industry has proven time and time again that they can hardly let any of these characters go (Jason Todd and Barry Allen, anyone?). There's no closure, in a way there's no sense of meaning to it all. The DC Universe take down Darkseid "once and for all", who cares, he'll be back sooner or later. As much as people whine about Spider-man 3, the final scenes of spoiler[Harry's funeral and Peter and MJ dancing] gave me a better sense of completion and satisfaction than any moment in the actual Spider-man comics. Because they actually had the strength to say, "this is all there is folks, you can go home" (not so much X-men 3, partially because I didn't care for most of it, but also the ending was an obnoxious cliffhanger since it was unlikely a 4th one would be made). In closing, great endings (real endings, not "oh, this arc ended, but another one is right around the corner") are an awesome experience, but they're a rarity in superhero comics. As such, it shouldn't be too confusing why I consider this to be a weakness of superhero comics. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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Yeah, the movies of superhero comics are all I can stand to see.. since they tend to actually have endings, kill off the villains, and give closure to things. Granted, they seem to get rebooted every few years, but that's another problem entirely. The problem is if they ended Batman.. DC is screwed. They end all their flagship titles, they have nothing to replace them with, so they have no choice. The American comic industry fell into that rut and it's kind of impossible to get out. |
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YotaruVegeta
Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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But doom85, what happened to spoiler[Sandman after the last movie? Did he give up crime or did he stay a villain? ]
As technology advances, who knows if the whole "tradition" of long running character series will stay? Maybe at some point something so drastic happens that these comics switch focus. BTW, I would like to point out that you did not choose the name DoctorTenma85 |
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sokpupet
Posts: 133 |
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And of course, you left out the paragraph where I give you three very popular American comics that have a defined end. Not a very good way to support your argument. |
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