Forum - View topicPuella Magi Madoka Magica (TV + movies).
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15505 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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It changed the very existance of spoiler[the magical girls from being a self destructive system with the sole purpose of useing humans as the univese's bateries, to one where there was benefit for humanity, and were encouraged to work together.] The cold facts that the little guys see would be a minimal change in reality, actually slightly worse, but the series already put out that what is important to us humans can be something illogical. The loss of a burden, the importance of acknowledgeing someone's effort, and the price of safety for even one human life. Also someone mentioned something about Kyouko not having much hope, actually that seems like the opposite case. spoiler[Hope was what pushed her and her family through the hard times, the hope her father's teachings taught would help others. And after having what her father did, it is amazing she got past it, she just took a more personal version of hope afterwards.] |
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Boomerang Flash
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To be genre changing, a title has to do something significantly different than the genre as it existed. It is not sufficient to merely have good writing, if what the writing goes to convey is a well-known premise in the genre. With this principle in mind, the reason Nanoha isn't considered genre changing is fairly simple: Nanoha's most prominent identifying characteristic, compared to most magical girl series, is the action. It features significant physical contacts and crisp movements that are usually associated with shounen action or mecha series, while magical girls is more strongly associated with distance attacks with wands and sparks. Unfortunately for Nanoha, the slightly earlier, largely contemporaneous, and much more prominent Pretty Cure also features significant physical contacts and crisp movements that are usually associated with shounen action series. It should come as no surprise that Nanoha isn't considered genre-changing under such circumstances. I would say that Nanoha got a lot of undeserved fame because, in Japan, it was an otaku seinen series, while Pretty Cure was a mainstream shoujo series, and the western fandom is much closer to the otaku seinen fandom than the mainstream shoujo one. |
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Akito Kinomoto
 Posts: 48 Location: Pretentious University |
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spoiler[Yes, the Magical Girls are no longer going to become Witches but now they've got the Wraiths to deal with. Whether or not the new "Madoka law" was any better than the previous fate that awaited the Magical Girls is just a matter of whether you want to keep fighting or whether you want to run the risk of corruption. Pick your poison as they say.]
spoiler[I said resignation precisely because Kyoko's idea of hope only concerned herself. If I had to put it another way then Sakura would have been like Mami or Sayaka when she first became a Magical Girl but then resigned herself to only doing what was best for her.] |
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Veers
 Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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Alright, on a more serious note here, I think this is a really important distinction to make. Urobuchi's sensibilities at work alone should be a clue. The story in Madoka has a certain crushing cynical hopelessness and futility to it, something that Nanoha certainly never had. Princess Tutu has a bit in common here, because Tutu is also sort of at the whims of an external system at work (Drosselmyer in Tutu, the contract and magical girl/witch system in Madoka), but even then it's not as extreme. Bokurano has a similar mood, but that's not any any shape or form magical girl related so let's put that aside. Yes, in Nanoha them being magical girls isn't a rosy life with unicorns and rainbows, but there's a decidedly different mood to the shows. In Nanoha it's like, "Now you're a magical girl! There's nothing you can't overcome with more application of FRIENDSHIP BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAMU!!" In Madoka it's like, "Now you're a magical girl, welcome to cosmic slavery and your inevitable demise! :3" The themes in Madoka's story and the questions it poses can often be seen in reality; consequences of actions, the morality of choices, the tragedy of uninformed decisions, and more, with an ultimate message that, despite the cold, cynical outlook exhibited by most of the show, having hope is a Good Thing and helping others for the right reasons is a Good Thing but you can't win them all. What do we get out of Nanoha? Some surface deep technology commentary, some shallow good vs. evil, and a nonstop stream of WAR IS BAD and FRIENDSHIP IS MAGIC. On that note, the antagonistic figures in Madoka also further muddy the waters, as they are not clear-cut villains like the baddies in Nanoha (Fate's mom, monsters-of-the-week, "evil" robot drones, whatever the crazy scientist from StrikerS was, etc.); Homura, Kyubey, and Kyoko, can all be viewed as antagonistic, but are any of them really villains? I don't think so. Certainly not in the traditional sense. A's, to its credit, handled this in a much more interesting way than S1/S3 of Nanoha, with the Knights being more complex antagonists because of Hayate's situation, but still it boiled down to BEFRIENDING and fighting the berserk book which was a really boring "enemy." Am I saying Nanoha is bad? Uh, well, yeah, I guess I am. A's was better written (I unironically enjoyed A's), and StrikerS had its moments, but let's not pretend that Nanoha is a complex, well-written story or anything, because it's just...not. Comparing Nanoha to Madoka is like trying to comparing Soul Eater to FMA:Brotherhood (two shows I really enjoy, mind you) and say that Soul Eater's cast and plot are somehow more sophisticated than FMA's, which is laughable. Has PMMM broken any barriers here? Maybe not. We really won't be able to tell until a few years down the road when we see if the genre makes any shifts to emulate what Madoka did (I don't count Smyphogear). But one thing is for sure: the combination of elements used in the way Gen used them in Madoka felt fresh to a lot of people, even people familiar with the genre and with Gen's previous works, and that means that at the very least it broke a lot of preconceptions and gave people a different way to look at things. If that doesn't qualify as significant, then I'm curious what does. |
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Juno016
 Posts: 2395 |
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Pardon me for reviving a topic that I know a ton of people would prefer to leave in the dust (or just not see dominating the forum's recent topics), but I'd rather post a reply from the new answerman article's forum discussion here than drift too far off topic there.
Since this is a direct reply to my post in the other topic, I'll reply mainly to this. Note that while I will explain myself, in no way am I saying that your experience of the show is any less valuable or valid than my own. I think the most important thing when watching an anime is the experience. If it didn't work for you, that's just how it is. Either your perspective when looking at the series was different, or you had other values you wished to see more prominently, or maybe it was just "filmed" in a way that you couldn't see what they were trying to say. Either way, all I'm doing is going into more detail. I'm not attacking anyone for their opinions. And I spoiler-tagged the entire thing, just in case. So here I go... spoiler[1) The Japanese word, "kami." This isn't so much a language difference as it is a cultural difference over the perception people have of the word. It "translates" into "god" in English. But Japanese shinto-based "kami" are different from anything recognized as a "god" in Western culture and religion. Specifically, Japanese "kami" are perceived to be the "spirits" or "spiritual force" found in... well, everything. People, plants, rocks, iPods, forces of nature. I was mainly referring to the fact that the general Japanese audience's perspective and the Western audience's perspective on Madoka's "transformation" into a "kami/god" are completely different. There is overlap, for sure, making it hard to determine the intent of the creators, but just by cultural context, I can guarantee that whether or not the creators wanted to make it sound "Western," they were still basing it on their own Japanese perspective of what a "kami" or "god" is. General Western view: Madoka wish turned her into a supreme being whose super powers help her grant her wish. She now has ultimate power and has transcended beyond time and space because she is no longer a part of our "human" realm. In other words, because she became a goddess, she has the power to change everything according to her wish. (it sounds just barely off the mark because it is--the problem being: why is she a "goddess" if she never said anything about wanting to be one? It shouldn't be related to her wish at all. Is she just that powerful? But the Japanese view gives us more...) General Japanese view: Madoka had her potential karma converted into magical power. Then, her wish was granted. Her wish itself utilizes her power, which is sufficient enough to fulfill her wish. As she travels through time-space as a magical girl, her activities prevent magical girls from turning into witches (the old law), instead making it look like girls disappear (the new law) because she takes them with her. Because her activities create the idea of a completely new law, she is seen as a "force of nature." And in Japanese shinto, "forces of nature" are considered "kami" as well, explaining why Madoka is now considered a "kami." Whether or not you like it, it makes sense... at least, in the Japanese view. There was no need to explain this in the series, either, as it is something that the expected audience would already understand, as opposed to the slightly different view of the sub-audience in the West.] spoiler[2) As for the "value of humanity" vs. "how the world works," it's better to bring the writer's personal thoughts into the picture for context. Urobuchi separates the "values of humanity" (morals, love, hope, dreams, wishes, etc.) from "how the world works" (physics, natural order of time-space, or cause-effect). He criticizes the idea that anything that humanity values has any real effect on how the world works. For example, if a tree is rotting and eventually falls over on a person, killing them, the cause was the natural rotting of the tree, its volume, and gravity. It doesn't matter whether the person was the nicest person on earth or the biggest snob in the neighborhood, or if they were atheist, buddhist, christian, or whatever. The tree will fall and if that person just happens to be there, they will be crushed. Urobuchi's stance is that because of this nondiscrimination, the world is automatically "cruel" and those who believe in the "values of humanity" are ultimately naive. Madoka was a strong case of someone who believed in the "values of humanity," to the point where she would barely listen to Kyuubey's logical explanations of "how the world works." From Urobuchi's perspective, she would be extremely naive. With this work, however, Urobuchi thought of another possibility. What if someone believed in the "values of humanity" was given the means to support their values? In Madoka's case, she was given the power to support her values due to the "karma" of the world. If she made the wrong kind of wish, it would likely backfire (like with her previous timeline wishes), but if she experienced a lot of hardship, she could learn from others' mistakes and make better judgement (and in the main timeline, she experienced a LOT). In the end, her wish was to eliminate all witches, but her intent was to give back the "human values" to the Magical Girls whose wishes were likely destroyed by their downfall. aka. The "dreams, hopes, and wishes" that Madoka had talked about in episodes 9 and 11. I could go into why she was the only appropriate character to fulfill this role, and why she herself was able to find such a perfect wish (as opposed to leaving loopholes that might backfire on her later), but I'd rather not talk about too much at once, even if it's all mutually inclusive.] spoiler[I've said this before, though. I believe the biggest "flaw" in Madoka isn't the logic of the series. The logic pulls through and makes sense. Rather, it's the atmosphere. Even big fans like myself have to admit that the change from the feeling of "everything is going down the drain" at the end of episode 11 into "everything is going to be alright" that episode 12 encompasses from the beginning is... a bit abrupt. Fitting? It was to me. Logical? It was to me. Powerful? It was to me. But the atmosphere still caught me off guard. I didn't expect it not to be beautiful (Urobuchi's tragic stories are usually bitter-sweet in the end), but to see the whole reverse of everything the series was pointing out as critical was surprising, if not slightly awkward. That is the true reason behind a lot of discontent with the ending. Many of us thought the series was trying to say something about "how the world works" and, instead, it basically reversed itself in the last episode and said, "but with the right mindset and the means to support your own values, you might be able to keep believing in them after all." So I don't blame people who don't like the ending. Just when you think you've found a show that was brave enough to say, "screw humanity's values and magical girls! Let's be realistic, people!" ...it changes into "oh, but not all of humanity's values are pointless." It betrays the hopeful expectations of the audience about its entire theme. It has reasoning behind it, but to some people, the exception to the rule makes the rule invalid. Not necessarily because they don't understand that there are exceptions to every rule, but rather because they are thinking that the value of the rule is important to talk about, and emphasizing the exception makes the rule sound like it's no longer a rule. On a positive note, though, Urobuchi was looking for that exception for years. From the author's perspective, he finally found one he could believe in. And he wrote it out in the form of Madoka. Kinda neat if you think about it that way. This series is a beacon of light in this man's own eyes. =P] |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Guys, give Juno016 a medal because they deserve it. Talk about going above and beyond the call of duty. I completely disagree with them about the atmosphere shift of the final episode, but hey, it's only a quibble. Last edited by dtm42 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23859 |
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Yes, excellent post, Juno016. You've increased my own understanding of the show.
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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You know, this is a bit amusing to me in a black humour kind of way. Urobuchi reminds me of the guy who when someone dies says : "No, he DIDN'T go to Heaven, he died and is rotting in the coffin". And now he created a situation where he could actually accept that the dead person went to Heaven. Last edited by jl07045 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23859 |
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Juno016's explication of the difference between the Japanese and Western understanding of kami is particularly timely for me since I've just started watching Kamichu! I more or less knew the distinction before, but his/her clear-headed explanation really snapped it into focus for me.
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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That is indeed an excellent post, Juno016. I love and have always loved Madoka's ending but now I think I can appreciate it just a bit more.
I agree with dtm that to me it didn't feel like an abrupt shift, which for the moment I will attribute to everything being completely in line with Madoka's character, though there may be other factors as well. |
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The King of Harts
 Posts: 6712 Location: Mount Crawford, Virginia |
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If I've learned anything from seeing ChibiKangaroo post about Madoka in the past or, more recently, Sword Art Online, Juno's post is pointless.
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Juno016
Posts: 2395 |
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D'aawwww~ Thanks, everyone~! I'm glad you all enjoy my explanation/analysis~
Aside from noticing a few spelling/grammar mistakes (this is what happens when I am writing things down directly from my mind without stopping to take a breath), I still think I need to reword some of the things I typed up, but I think it's still a bit solid. But anyway... I actually agree with you all on the atmosphere on the ending. I, too, never really thought it was that abrupt when watching it, and especially after taking so much time to rewatch the series (the movies were my 15th time seeing the series in full), translate it directly, and think about it, I'm convinced it's nearly flawless. BUT... my own experience isn't the only valid one out there. I like to observe the experiences of others and see what they think before making completely biased conclusions due to my own thoughts and beliefs. And through asking several different people, I've noticed the "abruptness" a bit more and it brought back a topic I had discussed with my roommate when we had just finished watching the last two episodes for the first time, making it all the more convincing to me that the atmosphere might've been a bit disconnected, or flowed too fast from one thing into another without a true "build-up." For the most part, it depends on what angle you approach the series. At this point, I gave up trying to predict what would happen and I had simply been along for the ride. It destroyed my expectations so many times (in a way that made me like it more and more each time), I just stopped relying on my own speculation. It helped me follow along with the series itself. My roommate, however, hadn't given up trying to figure out the message the series was trying to give. From his angle, he thought the series was trying to destroy the foundation of Magical Girl anime, and he liked that. And though he didn't have many problems with the logic behind the ending, the change in the message he was getting up to that point really twisted his experience of the ending to the point where he had to sleep on it before finally being able to think it through and tell me he liked how it ended after all. And with so many people calling "Deus Ex Machina!" online, I couldn't help but notice he wasn't the only one who was thrown off by it. The ending could suspend our disbelief because of the angle we looked at it. It couldn't suspend the disbelief of others because of the angle they looked at it. That's just how it is, regardless of who's right.
I'm not trying to change his/her opinion. It's just a stimulant to allow others, including him/her, to take the series from a different angle if they so feel like it. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. As long as someone gets something from what I have to say, though, I'm satisfied. And from the looks of it so far, I'm already being spoiled. =3
Well, I was about to decide to do my honor's project at school on Urobuchi, but my girlfriend beat me to it. 
He's a really fascinating author because he is very public about how he goes about writing. He's revealed his method on how he writes most of his stories. He's told us why he's written each story. He's told us his intentions in writing in general. And for Madoka, he couldn't help but follow up on the afterward of the first volume of Fate/Zero (in the 4-volume release, not the 6-volume release), where he said something along the lines of "I don't think it's possible for me to create anything heartwarming because I just don't believe in it." When the first episode of Madoka aired, he referred back to what he said there by posting on twitter something like, "I've finally done it! I've made a heartwarming story!" and, after episode 3, people basically shrugged it off as a joke. But after the series ended, he posted again, "I really did it after all. It's a satisfying conclusion for me." If anything is an indication that the ending isn't a Deus Ex Machina, it's that. No one I know who can come up with a story like this could simply Deus Ex Machina the ending for the sake of a conclusion, and then believe in his own message. That'd be like me BS-ing a college essay and then saying, "This will knock the socks off the professor when she reads it!" =P Last edited by Juno016 on Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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getchman
He started it Posts: 9122 Location: Bedford, NH |
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well, looks like i need to find a time to watch this show
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Personally, never thought that the ending was a Deus Ex Machina, you may question some details, bet things lead up to it quite smoothly. It was a "Jesus ending" though and since I didn't find PMMM emotionally engaging (partially because of what I said before), the ending also felt very meh to me. I was hoping for something more subdued. Not necessarily bittersweet, but something more realistic as a response to the cynical tone. Then again this is a fairy tale and an ending like that would probably also feel out of place. |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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@Juno016
First of all, I tip my hat to you. I think you did a pretty good job explaining your points so perhaps all of my sarcasm was not warranted. However, although I think you did a much much better job explaining the various points that you made about Madoka than most people in the fandom who I still don't think really know what they're talking about when they try to explain Madoka's ending, I still think there are many flaws even with your very well reasoned explanation. Since there's lot to cover, I'll try to break it down into sections
Your analysis is well reasoned and I give you credit. However, it is not backed up by all of the facts. First let me point you to exhibit #1. The very guide that everyone constantly points to as the bible on this subject. According to this guide, spoiler[Madoka becomes an "omnipresent being" on Good Friday, "the day of crucifixion of the Lord, Jesus Christ." Now, for all of the distinction you are drawing between western and Japanese concepts of god, it sure is interesting that the creators of the anime would have Madoka's ultimate sacrifice coincide with the ultimate sacrifice of the most important western example of god in human form ever throughout history.] As the guide which everyone around here says is bible clearly states, this was not by accident. spoiler[They were clearly making a direct comparison between Jesus as god in human form and Madoka as god in human form. He even says Madoka took away all of the despair of the grief seeds for all girls throughout history just as Jesus "saved us from our sins" for all people throughout history. Now, I personally am always a little suspicious of shows creating characters who are directly compared to Jesus. It is always extremely ambitious and I think sometimes a little arrogant, but I can't say whether or not I find that comparison to be brilliant or mildly offensive in Madoka's case.] Again though, I think this directly contradicts your distinction. Additionally, the show contains other Christian themes such as the whole situation prompting Kyoko to become a magical girl, and the church where she and Sayaka have their heart to heart. I don't think that was mere coincidence either. Exhibit #2 
As anyone who has watched Death Note from start to end knows, Light Yagami constantly talks about how he will become "the god of the new world." When he refers to himself as such, he is clearly talking about a supreme being who decides life and death for all people, not just a force of nature. He savors being worshipped as a god. Throughout the shows OPs, and in various episodes, Light is constantly shown juxtaposed with Christian and/or western imagery relating to Jesus and god, including crosses and crucifixion. Throughout the Death Note show, when people refer to Light Yagami as god, they say "kami," not some romanized "gadu" or something. Most famously, Teru Mikami towards the end of the series was especially fanatical with his "KAMIIIIIIIIII" screams and whimpers directed at Light. Both Death Note and Madoka Magica make use of Christian themes and imagery. spoiler[Both have a main character who is directly compared to a Christ-like god. In Madoka, that comparison is attempted in a positive way.] In Death Note, Light is clearly depicted as more of a pathetic wannabe. Given this evidence, I don't think your distinction on "kami" is very convincing although, like I said, I do applaud your effort and you proved my initial sarcasm to be wrong.
Ok, again, I admit that your explanation here makes sense. I was sarcastic about it before because it was thrown out there without any real explanation so I thought it was just another one of these inane statements that I've seen from a bunch of Madoka fan boys. However, even though I do agree that your explanation makes sense from a pure functional standpoint, I do not think Madoka is particularly revolutionary on this point. It seems to me that the whole purpose of a magical girl show is to allow young girls who are idealistic about the values of humanity (i.e. love, hope, and other sweet and sugary stuff) to be empowered to overcome the tough realities of the world. Again, my criticism about Madoka has never been that I thought it was a bad show or didn't like it. My criticism has been that the ending turned it into a conventional magical girl show and I found that to be a huge let down. On a side note, as I said in the response to the answerman post, I don't think Madoka's wish was foolproof. spoiler[No one really attempted to even address this issue, but the writer of the bible article everyone points to claims her wish was foolproof because she said she wanted to save the girls "with her own hands," but Kyuubey could have just made her into a puppet and directed her hands to carry out his own agenda. I'm sure there could have been many other ways it could have gone wrong]. It was not a foolproof wish. Perhaps your final comment shows that our disagreement hinges more on the fact that you are comfortable with the fact that Madoka's ending transformed the show from a deconstruction of magical girl shows into a traditional magical girl show, and I am not comfortable with that transformation. I think you are right that I was expecting the show to stay on the edgier, deconstruction side. Even if the finale wasn't another deconstruction of a magical girl trope, it still could have been something thought provoking that didn't bring us right back to traditional and well tread concepts of the genre. That was where I threw in my idea about Madoka wishing for Kyuubey to have human emotions or something. That would have been very interesting, since spoiler[the most important justification for his whole ammoral agenda was that he had no emotions and was completely perplexed about why the (perhaps millions?) of magical girls he sacrificed would be upset with him using them as cattle to be slaughtered. I would have wanted to see what kind of horrifying impact it would have had on him to suddenly realize what he had done, not out of revenge as Fencedude keeps claiming, but just to make him change his ways and perhaps even turn against his people. I think that could have opened up all kinds of new interesting possibilities for the future of the show. Then I would have wanted to see Homura kill Madoka's witch, perhaps with Kyuubey's help, in some kind of tearjerkingly tragic scene.] That would have been an ending worthy of masterpiece status in my opinion. Instead, the creators took the easy way out in my opinion and returned us to magical girl status quo. spoiler[The heroine receives the ultimate power and saves us all, resetting the universe so that hope triumphs over despair.] As I said, I salute your well reasoned analysis. It surprised me. However, what I just described at the end of the previous paragraph is just not good enough for me. It may be good enough for the various fanboys who will no doubt respond to my post with "YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. JEEEEZ!!! WATCH IT AGAIN!!!! READ THIS GUIDE!!! YOU ARE EVIL FOR NOT EMBRACING THE PERFECTION OF MADOKA!!" However, its not good enough for me. I loved the show, but thought the ending was a cop out. |
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