Forum - View topicThe Mike Toole Show - Anime Gets Sloppy
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I like the South Park parody (not to mention the manga sequences and all that). But it was exactly that: a parody in a crazy comedy OVA which broke the fourth wall constantly and mixed the animation style up in zany ways. It is not the same as a normal show going hundreds of episodes with a similar animation style and then suddenly going off the deep end just for one episode.
I utterly disagree. Anime is a medium to tell interesting and entertaining stories. I shouldn't even notice the animation style, because that's not the important part. Animators are only there to facilitate the experience, not to show-boat and ruin suspension of disbelief by shoving the fact that this is a fictional piece of work in our faces. Let me put it this way. Let's say you were three hundred pages into reading a novel. And then for no in-story reason the font suddenly changes to MS Mincho and the text size doubles and the kerning gets dicked around with, and the changes only last one chapter before switching back to what they were. Would you not find that irritating as hell? I know I would. |
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Aura Ichadora
Posts: 2300 Location: In front of my computer |
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I love a lot of works by Production I.G., especially their work on the Tsubasa OVAs and all of the anime for xxxHolic. However, in the first series of xxxHolic and in the movie, there's a lot of animation flaws that just made me laugh.
I remember it being covered on here before, although I can't find the article that reviewed it, and there were screenshots of the different errors. Tiny heads on huge square bodies, super long spaghetti arms and legs, loopy arms... it wasn't too bad in the first half of the series, but by the time you get to the second half the animation quality went down. I think a lot of the problem came because they were trying to do a 24-episode series because I never really noticed problems in animation in the second series, xxxHolic Kei, or in any of the Tsubasa or xxxHolic OVAs. I haven't seen the Tsubasa movie, however, so I don't know what animation errors might be in that. However, I have found a few clips from the movie, Midsummer's Night Dream, that explains what I'm talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkMpp9ycSuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_Y4i2wUYUY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZgOrJ-R_Pk |
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isahackjob
Posts: 55 |
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uguu
Posts: 220 |
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I understand that it's weird when you're actually enjoying Naruto regularly and it goes really really wacky like it never has before for one episode. My issue is that more often than not the criticism isn't "the style wasn't serious enough" but "it's poorly drawn/animated". If people just said "it wasn't stylistically fitting" I wouldn't have given a damn. I'VE ALREADY ADMITTED THIS.
What I'm talking about is your overarching statement of the importance of consistency in anime. How can you be so against the idea of the hand of the animator being obvious and yet be 100% fine when FLCL does it? Because you WERE meant to notice the animation and art style in FLCL ALL THE TIME and it shifts around all over the place to no end. I understand that in some cases it can be bothersome to fans but you're taking that to an extreme that doesn't even begin to make sense.
That's a completely incoherent comparison. Books are not a visual medium and unless the author intended it, fonts shouldn't really play a part in the experience. Fonts are not a big part of what carries a book at all. Do you really value visuals in anime so little that you compare them to FONTS in literature? Last edited by uguu on Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:14 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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TandooriJones
Posts: 40 |
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Then why even animate it. Also anime isn't a medium. ANIMATION is a medium. |
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Panoptican
Posts: 160 |
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I could not disagree more with this. I almost can't believe someone would say animation is not the important part of anime. I'd rank it higher than story for sure. If we're judging based on story I'd say that most anime aren't anything super special. There's certainly a greater number of amazing stories in books for example. If I didn't care about animation and simply wanted to be immersed in amazing stories I'd stick with books for sure. That all said, I really enjoy the part of anime that showcase the animators. When I watched Naruto, one thing I appreciated about the show is when they'd obviously let one of their animators cut loose. Those were great parts. It was far more interesting than the static shots panning across the screen in the lower budget episodes. Those boring pans do make better screenshots though I suppose, but who cares about that? Last edited by Panoptican on Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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uguu
Posts: 220 |
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>those last Sasuke examples Oh my god did you even READ the freaking article? It was blatantly defending that type of stuff and those come from scenes even more well drawn and animated than the Pain episode. Last edited by uguu on Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Panoptican
Posts: 160 |
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Yeah I think I remember that fight. It was Sasuke vs creepy guy (sorry, I forget his name). That fight was great. Way better than most fight in Naruto. |
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uguu
Posts: 220 |
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I don't think anyone is seriously bothered by that stuff when just watching the episode. This 'lol QUALITY' thing is a learned internet behavior plain and simple. It's not something that the 'uninformed' think are mistakes; it's something said by the wrongly, pseudo-intellectually informed. If you're just digesting an anime normally without any outside influence, you won't notice those frames. I wonder how familiar Mike Toole is with the evolution of this meme because he seems to have been around on 4chan since the ADTRW days. |
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belvadeer
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You guys, stop, you're killing me with all these links. Some of these are just too funny for words. XD
Now this is a surprise. I didn't know Varanoire had an anime tied to it. I know the game is another one of their PS2 obscures, but I wasn't aware there was a 2002 OVA tied to it. Then again, I guess it ties in to the same category as the Spectral Force OVA, known for horrendous use of awkward 3D models during battle scenes. Funny though, didn't know they had cheeseburgers in Neverland, much less picturing Rodney (Meu's "grandpa", not by blood) eating one all the time. I almost want to seek it out just to see that. XD |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Exactly my point. FLCL was consistently inconsistent with its animation style (the quality itself was very good), and used changes in anime as a source of humour. In other words, the animation changes were a core part of the show and not something tacked on. Like I said, you cannot compare a six-part comedy OVA that never hid that it was about mixing things up with a seriously-implemented show that without warning has a stroke for a single episode.
With all due respect, I think I am making perfect sense and I don't see what the problem is. I've explained my position quite clearly.
That isn't incoherent. In fact, you've proven my point, so I thank you. Fonts are not a part of the story, they are simply how the story is told. Just like how animation is not part of the story, it is simply how the story is told.
Like I said, visuals are there to tell a story. Don't get me wrong, I like amazing backgrounds, I like high-quality animation, and I like interesting camera angles and storyboarding. But all of those things are subservient to the writing. I would take shows that are plainly drawn but beautifully written - for example Trigun, Genshiken's first season, Bunny Drop or Wandering Son - over shows like Guilty Crown or BLOOD-C, which are both beautifully drawn but have atrocious writing.
Yes, you're right. But I think it was obvious what I was getting at.
By that logic, why even write a book if the prose doesn't mean anything? Because we want to be told a story, and - just like you yourself said - animation is a medium.
And I get frustrated when people think so lowly of storytelling quality that they'll watch any old tripe as long as it look pretty. |
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TandooriJones
Posts: 40 |
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Are you saying that it doesn't matter how well a book is written, as long as the story's alright? Like, the technical and artistic merits of the usage of the medium in question are inconsequential? Because that's a bit of a strange opinion to hold. |
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uguu
Posts: 220 |
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But there IS a gaping contradiction there. It makes sense to say that a style shift can be too sudden, but in your earlier post, you went against the very idea of style shifts and the hand of the animator being visible.
If you just said "the changes shouldn't come out of nowhere" that should be fine but your rant about how wrong I am that it's great for the hand of the animator to come through made no sense.
I don't know what to say to this. There are amazing works that are driven purely by visual expressiveness. Franken's Gears from Robot Carnival doesn't have a single spoken line of dialogue and it's freaking mind blowing. A lot of anime shorts or short films like that have very little to no dialogue. To say that visuals have to be 'subervient to the script' seems like something that's vastly under-appreciating the animated medium.
Did you seriously just link an amazing Shinya Ohira sequence as an "animation fail " example? Did you learn nothing from the article? It wasn't even vaguely out of place here because the off-model was used either for comedy or to create a strange, otherwoldly atmosphere, and it was done well in both cases! At least the Naruto fans can just dislike the style used within the context of the work and say it should have been used for a comedy episode (I disagree, but if someone says that they're not shitting on the technical merits), but what you said doesn't really make sense. The first clip was a TRIPPY, WEIRD SCENE. It made perfect sense for it to look like that! |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11537 |
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I'm not sure why you're getting so hysterical over my post since I never actually discussed the article itself, but yes, I did read it, and the only mention of Naruto was episode 167 of Naruto Shippuden - and I agree with Mike's defense of that episode. The pics I linked were from early in the original series (maybe by the same guy, I don't follow that stuff usually), and while the second shot probably was intentional in the animation of the scene, no one can convince me that the upside down head was, and if it was, it most certainly did not enhance the scene, especially when it stands out so much that you can pick it out during the playback and not just in a static shot (because it's the opposite direction of the movement it was trying to portray). But intentional or not, they're still hilarious as static shots. That's all I was saying. |
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musouka
Posts: 718 |
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Oh yeah, the second half of Omega is nearly visually unwatchable. It ranges from "oh, they're actually moving this episode!" to "can you at least draw lip flaps that don't make me want to cry?" It's even more hilarious because I just got done checking out the absolutely gorgeous work Yamashita did on Shippuuden 167...man, Naruto fans sure are spoiled... |
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