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HitokiriShadow
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:03 pm
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abunai wrote: |
One sub I saw (I can't at the moment recall which one), had X-sama translated as "Oh Great X", a useful translation since the situation involved comically exaggerated worshipful respect.
- abunai |
My first thought was Strawberry Marshmallow. Maybe my memory is just adding in subtitles where that would fit, but I vaguely recall some scene in which Miu addressed one of the other characters with "-sama" and the subs read "Oh Great __".
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Tony K.
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Joined: 18 Nov 2003
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Location: Frisco, TX
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:47 pm
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abunai wrote: | Hmmm... actually, I would hypothesize that it is a characteristic of pre-urbanized/rural society that is retained in the language for a while after urbanization, then disappears. |
Ah~ that's perfect! Much of Laos is still very much rural/undeveloped and very closely-knit as a result. The way it carries over through this and a lot of older cultures must be the traditional remnants of the "olden days" (aka traditional mannerisms or whatever). I've often seen and still see the same behavior all the time when my parents and older generation adults talk to one another.
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EricDent
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 997
Location: Georgetown, TX
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:12 pm
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Obviously since I usually read loads of manga that has the honorifics in them, I never really noticed the useage in anime that often.
Of course there are some that have them, and some that don't.
An example of the ones that have them (at least Sempai) is Chobits.
An example of ones that don't is School Rumble.
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konkonsn
Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 172
Location: Illinois
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:56 pm
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Yeah, the Fruits Basket reference is a good one. When I watched that dub, I was like, "Why is he getting all worked up over the Prince Yuki thing?" When I read the manga and saw the honorific change, that scene made a whole lot more sense.
Likewise, in Princess Tutu, there was this episode where Rue and Duck were talking, and Duck calls Rue, "Rue-chan." And Rue says, "Call me Rue-sama. We're not friends." But it was really awkward in the English dub.
"Hey Rue."
"Call me Lady Rue."
??? And Duck had called her Rue all that time before too...
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Super_Vegeta
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 141
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:54 pm
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Tony K. wrote: | I'm not sure an emphasis on honorifics even exists in American society. Aside from putting a title in front of peoples' names like a mister, miss, or misses, there's nothing else other than referring to our family members by either title (father, mother, uncle, aunt, etc.) or first name (as you would to brothers, sisters, cousins, or whomever you consider of equal social status).
From my experience in Asian cultures, the whole concept of honorifics is about respect, seniority, and is just a resulting by-product of long-standing tradition. It probably seems very subtle and old-fashioned to a lot of folks who aren't familiar with the practice in general, but that's the way it turned out after so many years.
I don't see how dub scripts can ever truly capture the same importance because our society just never really had that kind of subtlety in the first place. If you call someone you really, really admire -sama, what else are you going to call them? Lord? Mr.? Oh, Great One? That would just sound silly, don't you think?
It's not anyone's fault that a dub script can't properly translate such a nuance, but it's better than leaving it there and making the entire thing sound awkward because of differing social norms. |
Hey this is a good point. I've always liked anime, but it hasn't been until the last 2 or 3 years that really started to get drawn into it. Because I ussually watch dub (although I can watch either dub or sub no problem), I didn't really know anything about the honorifics until I started reading Manga.
At first I didn't know what the heck was going on. Now I (more or less) understand, although, I don't fully understand the meanings of all the honorifics.
As far as I understand baisically each of the different suffixes represent varying degrees of formality with a particular individual. (is that correct?)
with chan being the least formal and Sama being the most. (or is sensei?)
Also, I've seen variations (I think) of some honorifics, that I don't understand. IE "tan"
As for the topic at hand I was watching an anime in my school's anime club (I think it was grenadier or something to that affect), and the main character asks the lead female character to call him sama. . . but she instead choses to call him chan. (Is that what you mean?) Also I assume that doing such a thing is a sort of insult. (just a guess based on the context)
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Kelly
Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 868
Location: New York City
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:15 pm
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Super_Vegeta wrote: | Also, I've seen variations (I think) of some honorifics, that I don't understand. IE "tan" |
My understanding is that -tan and other "honorifics" are used, usually by girls, to convert names into cute nicknames - the most famous example probably being the long-running joke of Fai's mischievous intentional misuse to get a rise out of the very non-girly Kurogane in Tsubasa. If you see an honorific you don't recognize, it's probably likely that's the reason.
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marie-antoinette
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 4136
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:37 pm
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Tony K. wrote: |
abunai wrote: | I haven't seen Gunslinger Girl, so I don't know what relationship these two have -- but I feel I must point out that nii-san doesn't have to mean "older brother" with an implication of family relationship. It can be a general term of respect, just as nee-san, oba-san, oji-san, obaa-san and ojii-san can be. |
Yes, I concur. Asian cultures also use honorifics with a certain degree of "casual respect." For example, in Lao culture younger children are supposed to address older children as "big brother/sister" and vice versa, or parents refer to older parents (grandparent age) as "father/mother." Well, it's a little closer to "pops" or "ma'am," but it's an example of the system, regardless.
You can actually see examples of this in American culture when same-aged people say "bro'/brother/sis'/sister" or the aforementioned "pops/ma'am," though its usually a result of either a tightly knit community or very friendly relations/familiarity with the other person. |
Again though, the point I was making is that in Gunslinger Girl's case, the characters in question are brothers. They are genetically related and the sub script completely ignores this fact, despite the references to it in the Japanese script which are meant in the most literal sense.
So, while in other, non-literal uses it is fine for subs and dubs to ignore this fact (though I personally think that the X (TV)'s use of "missy" for onee-san (or something similar) was actually pretty well done and got the general idea across), in cases when it is meant literally, it is unacceptable for it not to be translated. It is a key part of Jose and Jean's relationship and does become more integral to the plot later on.
Last edited by marie-antoinette on Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Furudanuki
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1874
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:39 pm
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Super_Vegeta wrote: | Also, I've seen variations (I think) of some honorifics, that I don't understand. IE "tan" |
The -tan honorific is just baby-talk for -chan. Very small children often cannot pronounce the "ch" sound properly, so when they attempt to say "Yuki-chan" it comes out as "Yuki-tan". If used by someone other than a small child they are, depending on the circumstances, probably trying to be extra-cute, sarcastic, or teasing.
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Super_Vegeta
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 141
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:40 pm
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Kelly wrote: |
Super_Vegeta wrote: | Also, I've seen variations (I think) of some honorifics, that I don't understand. IE "tan" |
My understanding is that -tan and other "honorifics" are used, usually by girls, to convert names into cute nicknames - the most famous example probably being the long-running joke of Fai's mischievous intentional misuse to get a rise out of the very non-girly Kurogane in Tsubasa. If you see an honorific you don't recognize, it's probably likely that's the reason. |
Oh thanks! I'd seen that a couple times in a few manga(s) that I was reading and while I've started to get the just of the whole honorifics thing when they changed em up I was confused as hell.
Actually now that I think about in Persona 3 Junpei calls Yukari "Yuka-tan" (Junpei's a dude) I guess giving cute nicknames isn't something only girls do.
As a side not, the other instance I was thinking of was that a female character was using an altered honorific.
Anyway thanks.
EDIT: after reading Furudanuki's post, I think I understand the use of "tan" in P3, it was definately used for the pupose of teasing Yukari.
Ok thanks everyone!
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abunai
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Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 5463
Location: 露命
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:58 pm
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Furudanuki wrote: |
Super_Vegeta wrote: | Also, I've seen variations (I think) of some honorifics, that I don't understand. IE "tan" |
The -tan honorific is just baby-talk for -chan. Very small children often cannot pronounce the "ch" sound properly, so when they attempt to say "Yuki-chan" it comes out as "Yuki-tan". If used by someone other than a small child they are, depending on the circumstances, probably trying to be extra-cute, sarcastic, or teasing. |
Actually, -chan itself is originally "babytalk" for -san. This kind of consonantal shift is common, and you will see it occur in a lot of situations where "babytalk" is being insinuated, often in the context of deliberately infantile (burikko) behaviour by women in the presence of men.
Just for instance, I recently came across an occurrence of the monumentally irritating "Gomen nachaaai!" (for "Gomen nasai!") on To-Love-RU.
What usually happens is that something starts out as "babytalk", then is adopted by the distaff side as a deliberate infantile style, to appeal to men; then, after a while, it is adopted by the men to specifically apply to both women and children, and becomes standardized in the language. This happened with -chan, and we are seeing it happen with -tan. A generation from now, -tan will no longer be an affectation, it will be standard Japanese the way -chan is now.
- abunai
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