Forum - View topicMonster (TV) [Dub Broadcast].
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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And another thing!
One thing I never felt was 100% fully explained was [spoilers through episode 16] spoiler[Johan's split personality. It comes as a plot twist/revelation but I always wondered if it wasn't a red herring because [general spoilers]spoiler[it's never really made explicit in the series. I always took his "messages" to Tenma as little more than a joke (I think because of something Tenma says later which discredits them as nothing more than Johan screwing with him). We never see this side Nina is convinced Johan has that is full of despair, unless it's at the end, but even then he seems like a cold serial killer. Maybe the only way the split personality manifests itself is in Johan wanting to die--i.e. telling people to aim for his head? But even that can be be explained by Johan just not caring at all about living or dying, not deep despair. ] My question is, does he actually have a split personality (in which case ultimate atonement is achievable) or is that a red herring the series throws in in episode 16 which Tenma later discredits?] Just a question I've always had. |
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arachneia
 Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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End of series spoilers.
spoiler[It does irk me that the split personality theory is never confirmed, though Nina obviously seems to believe it, but I nonetheless think it's true - or, less specifically, I think there is something in Johann that is aware of the wrongness of his crimes and is trying to stop him. I think that Urasawa, rather than trying to give a definitive diagnosis, is more concerned with establishing that Johann is mentally unstable (even if you don't buy into the split personality theory, there is no way that someone who borrows another person's memories can be considered sane) - perhaps in order to play with his motives, culpability, ability to be redeemed, or all of the above. Much later, after Nina reveals that the memories were hers, he says he feels like he has woken up from a dream -- whether this is his realization of his own identity beyond the story of the nameless monster or some kind of lapse into sanity, I don't know, but it definitely suggests that he was, for a large portion of his life, divided in mind and, perhaps, consciousness.] spoiler[I don't actually remember what Tenma says about the messages to discredit the split personality idea, but I don't think his judgment that Johann is simply messing with his head is a necessarily accurate assessment of things. Firstly, neither Tenma nor the lady who had adopted him (who Jurgens had killed) actually knew the full significance of the messages (Tenma finds out much later, and not with Johann's help), and secondly, Johann's pleas for death (if you could call them that) do make it seem like he is trying to vanquish the monster within.] spoiler[As far as "deep despair," he may still feel it, or he may have sublimated it into complete amorality and destruction; but I do think that it's a huge driving force of his, and that his confrontation with Nina at the Red Rose Mansion (as well as his last words to Tenma) proves that he is not apathetic after all.] |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Then again, it could just be that spoiler["split personality" is how Nina rationalizes everything her brother has done and justifies forgiveness. Maybe it's just that it's not extreme enough to be considered "split personality." Besides, if the monster is growing inside him, shouldn't it be the opposite? Shouldn't his more "caring" nature, the one which seems to regret his crimes, be on the outside, with the "monster" growing larger and larger from within? Does he grow progressively more evil as the series marches forward? I do think the "waking up from a dream" is pivotal, though. Until then, Johan treats everything like a game. He smiles every time he points his finger at his forehead. Until the very last scene, after he has "awoken from the dream." Only then does he seem to truly feel remorse, possibly as a realization that he has actually committed these crimes because he's an individual; suddenly Nina (using false memories) or whoever else he created in his head is no longer there as a crutch, to share the burden. This links up with his "landscape of the end" in which he's finally alone. His final request for Tenma to shoot him carries an urgency and desperation that he's never revealed before, and I guess it comes from Johan wading through the six foot wall of crap in his own head throughout the series. I guess, in summary, it's going a little too far to call what he had split personality since we never see it manifest itself in his actions aside from his messages; but he definitely used false memories/some sort of mindgame as a mental crutch for all his wrongdoing, and when that crutch crumbles and the suppressed stuff rises to the surface, the wall falls down. ] |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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spoiler[Well, is that really an M.O. that corresponds to the picture book? I think the monster takes over, and Johann's awareness of it, and his attempts to stop it, are reflections of his own agency and signs that he was not inherently destructive and immoral.] Another thing to consider is the nature of Johann's quest. spoiler[I do think that his initial motivation is to destroy Bonaparta, and this is directly reflected in the tale-within-a-tale of Lipsky's puppet show in which he talks about the young man who saves a demon who is on a quest to find the dragon who is destroying the world. Everything in this setup points to Johann being not the main force of evil, but the victim of his own demon-ness - a quality that may be innate, but not chosen. Tenma chases after a monster that was made, not born, and this, I think, works well with the idea that Johann's evil is external and that a part of him fights against it.] spoiler[I don't know if calling Johann's problem a split personality is too far - Gillen and Runge seem to agree with it, in any case, and Nina is not an idiot hell-bent on waving away her brother's sins. She's shot him once, she wants to do it again, and she struggles with forgiveness up until the very end.] |
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bleachj0j
 Posts: 925 |
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The two episodes were great. The second one my favorite with Lunge going even more crazy. I can't belive he still belives Tenma is guilty. He needs to get over his pride.
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bleachj0j
Posts: 925 |
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bump
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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Whoa. These were two intense episodes. Decision has long been one of my favorite episodes, but I was very surprised with how much Execution moved me. Rewatching Johann's speech to Richard Braun while knowing his history was especially chilling and resonant. That was an utterly mesmerizing scene.
spoiler[Looking at the story as a whole, I took Richard's story as a foil to Tenma's - Tenma could have chosen the same alternative and shot the monster without bothering to find out his inner workings and offer a possibility of correction and recuperation. More and more, these side stories and the way people's decisions play out in them convince me that Tenma's hesitation and final choice are ultimately right.] Also, did Johann's voice actor change or something? |
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Harrycombs
Posts: 17 |
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^
I also felt that Johan's voice actor suddenly got better in past episodes.  I was little anxious at the start of the Munich arc, but I thought he did Execution perfectly! Execution is also one of my favorite episodes, so I'm glad they got it right.
I hope Grimmer gets a good voice actor, since he's one of my favorite characters. I guess we'll see soon. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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I'd call them more doubles than foils, but that's a very profound thought. They seem to branch off into all the directions Tenma could have gone in if he'd given in to certain temptations...very appropriate for a man on a personal odyssey. |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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I actually enjoyed the change. The first VA (or the actor's style?) sounded a little too flamboyant for my liking. In Execution, his voice had a spot-on blend of subtle menace, confidence, and provocation.
That's a very good way of phrasing it. I'm surprised how much more food for thought and how many more intricacies and hidden meanings multiple viewings of this series are yielding. I have to fight the urge not to marathon-watch the whole thing again. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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 Actually, we're cheating. My dad likes it so much he can't wait for the episodes to air (he's never watched anime before-he fell asleep during Princess Mononoke, so I'm a little bit ecstatic). So I'm downloading the subs for now--I was buying the episodes on itunes but you can't burn dvds from them. I'll just buy all the boxsets as they come out, which I was planning to do anyway.
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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Aargh, why is this thread so dead?
I loved the past two episodes. The Schubert/Schuwald change was idiotic - it was still visible as "Schubert" from the side angle. I don't know how hard it is to watch the anime and then sub it afterwards, but whatever. Excellent episodes. |
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daedelus
 Posts: 743 Location: Texas City, TX (ajd: 6/11/05) |
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Well, I've not been active on this thread primarily because you, and a few others, who have seen the whole series is filling this thread full of posts that have to be completely spoiler tagged. This thread is the "Monster--SyFy broadcast" thread. That means that only events that have occurred on the Ani-Monday broadcast should be discussed. Sure, it's ok to refer to a future event every now and then, but just look at the first few posts on this page alone. It's no fun for someone like me, who wants to see the show fresh as it airs, to have to skip over several posts because future events are being discussed-- at length. Maybe you guys could send pm's? Or, isn't there a thread that followed the Japanese broadcast that you could revive? Anyway, that's why I've stayed away. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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I thought that was the point of spoiler tags. You know, you skip them. Do you not read threads unless you can read every post? Anyway, so sorry to inconvenience you. I know it's really difficult to skip over the black tags, must be a huge hassle. Just so you know, it's impossible to discuss this show without talking about the major overarching moral themes...and for those of us who have seen it that can be spoilery. But if spoiler tags are all it takes to defer you from a topic then I'm sure we're not missing much. |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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Duly noted. There are also dozens of users who have already seen the show, and it is their silence primarily that I find baffling. I understand that it could be annoying to attempt to discuss a plot point at a first viewing only to have people who have already seen the show in its entirety how relevant, useless, or awesome the particular subject is going to be, but I have tried my best not to make such comments and to black out even the slightest spoiler. As to why we don't revive the Japanese broadcast thread, I am following the dub, and discussing the show as it progresses with the foreknowledge of the rest of the series - which I'm finding a lot more fruitful than I thought it could ever be. My only un-spoilered comments concern the differences between the original broadcast and the edited version, something that should be, if anything, helpful to the first time viewer. |
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