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Quote:

Japanese anime and manga then to be made to have mass audience appeal, so many of our favorite anime is bound to have even a few seconds of this kind of thing. It's a cultural norm for Japanese entertainment.

Even if fans of normal titles are not prosecuted, this current situation may make U.S. anime companies start thinking twice and shying away from many titles they would usually import in a hearbeat.

Fernando Gonzalez Jr.
Houston, TX
mk2000
fernandogonzalez [at] mac.com

I think there is a differece between slightly underage consensual sex that is a part of the anime/manga and the rape of a preteen girl that is the point of the anime/manga.

fxg97873 wrote:

Sir_Brass wrote:

Jabberwock wrote:

You do realize that America has a trade embargo on Cuba right now, not just an industry but an entire country right? America can "ban" whatever type of anime it deems inappropriate, but that is not the point. From what I briefly saw of the article it has to do child pornography aka, lolicon and such. If it did, in some way affect anime, it would probably be on hentai titles with the exploitation of "children" in them. Though I would imagine that this whole law primarily has to do with protecting real children and or new types of punishments for sex offenders and such.

Yup, so even if it DID affect anime, it'd be targeted at anime that most anime fans (including myself) would love to disown from the super-genre in the first place (like lolicon hentai).

Japanese anime and manga then to be made to have mass audience appeal, so many of our favorite anime is bound to have even a few seconds of this kind of thing. It's a cultural norm for Japanese entertainment.

Even if fans of normal titles are not prosecuted, this current situation may make U.S. anime companies start thinking twice and shying away from many titles they would usually import in a hearbeat.

Fernando Gonzalez Jr.
Houston, TX
mk2000
fernandogonzalez [at] mac.com

Showing underage sex does NOT add to mass appeal. If anything, it lowers a show's appeal to wider audiences (which includes children and sane adults who either shouldn't or wouldn't want to see that "kind of thing").

And honesty, are there any good titles that WOULD be effected? Yes, there is stuff like FLCL and The End of EVA that pushes it a bit but they have lots of artistic value and aren't even graphic in their portrayal of sexuality and therefore they don't count as pornography. In fact, is it even possible for there to be a decent anime that doesn't have artistic value? Because if you actually want to defend flat-out pointless plotless pornography, then you certainly won't get any supporters here.

Also, weren't those documents you linked to several years old? If they had any effect on the anime industry we'd have seen it by now.

Mugen The Great wrote:

fxg97873 wrote:

Sir_Brass wrote:

Jabberwock wrote:

You do realize that America has a trade embargo on Cuba right now, not just an industry but an entire country right? America can "ban" whatever type of anime it deems inappropriate, but that is not the point. From what I briefly saw of the article it has to do child pornography aka, lolicon and such. If it did, in some way affect anime, it would probably be on hentai titles with the exploitation of "children" in them. Though I would imagine that this whole law primarily has to do with protecting real children and or new types of punishments for sex offenders and such.

Yup, so even if it DID affect anime, it'd be targeted at anime that most anime fans (including myself) would love to disown from the super-genre in the first place (like lolicon hentai).

Japanese anime and manga then to be made to have mass audience appeal, so many of our favorite anime is bound to have even a few seconds of this kind of thing. It's a cultural norm for Japanese entertainment.

Even if fans of normal titles are not prosecuted, this current situation may make U.S. anime companies start thinking twice and shying away from many titles they would usually import in a hearbeat.

Fernando Gonzalez Jr.
Houston, TX
mk2000
fernandogonzalez [at] mac.com

Showing underage sex does NOT add to mass appeal. If anything, it lowers a show's appeal to wider audiences (which includes children and sane adults who either shouldn't or wouldn't want to see that "kind of thing").

Culturally speaking, taboo subjects that most Western storytelling does not touch tends to be the norm in Japanese stories.

Quote:

And honesty, are there any good titles that WOULD be effected? Yes, there is stuff like FLCL and The End of EVA that pushes it a bit but they have lots of artistic value and aren't even graphic in their portrayal of sexuality and therefore they don't count as pornography. In fact, is it even possible for there to be a decent anime that doesn't have artistic value?

That is the point of the creation of this special interest group, to defend the artistic value of anime, manga and doujinshi againsts any possible ignorance and intolerance from the DOJ or other groups. They are not anime or manga experts and may only think about the general stereotype...that Anime is only about Sex and Gore. We want to make sure that we can promote a REAL image of anime and manga...an important artistic medium with wide ranging genres of expression.

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Because if you actually want to defend flat-out pointless plotless pornography, then you certainly won't get any supporters here.

Considering the volume of general Hentai that is sold in the U.S., I am not sure that would be the case. Then again, I don't think anybody is going to crawl out of the woodwork and yell out to the world and his parents "I love Japenese porn!". Anyhow, I digress.

One thing I want to make sure is that nobody and I mean NOBODY is defending that sick b*stard who went to jail. As I stated earlier, his previous rapsheet was extremely disturbing and he deserves to rot in prison.

What has to be understood here is that the DOJ picks its battles when trying to set precedents.
They are obvisouly not going to try out relatively new laws against hard targets (known artists, anime companies, people with money and no past criminal record)

This guy was obviously an easy pick since no one (probably including his own mother) would defend him.

But, the law has been used and that is the point.
It could potential affect us.

This organization is being created to promote and educate people about the importance of the current culture interchange we have with Japan.
It will seek to discuss laws as they affect anime, manga and doujinshi, promote political participation by helping fans register to vote (they tend to be young, unregistered and uninvolved in many cases).

We are merely trying to create a voice to say to Washington "Here we are! Don't forget about us and we won't either when it comes time for the polls."

That would be the sole purpose of the organization.

What we would not be:
The Association for the Protection of Sick F*cks

What our motto would be, though, is "Protect EVERYONE's rights and you will save your own"

Quote:

Also, weren't those documents you linked to several years old? If they had any effect on the anime industry we'd have seen it by now.

Nope.
The conviction was this past November 2005 and it is the first time the law has been used (the DOJ was waiting for the dust to clear and for an easy case to come along)
Coincidentally, the law was revised recently due to constitutionality issues.

Fernando Gonzalez
mk2000

Quote:

culture interchange with Japan

%))))))
Since when did commercial distribution of Japanese TV shows become "cultural exchange"? You guys really need to cut back on patronizing anime.

Quote:

Japanese anime and manga then to be made to have mass audience appeal

No, they're made with a target audience in mind.

Okay, so a law is passed that makes SOME shows unavailable to you. Where exactly is the tragedy? The only thing it's going to hurt is the budgets of anime distributors in the U.S. Not the viewers and it definitely won't hit the authors back in Japan. It'll just be less anime for some, more fansubbed anime for others. Also, such a situation will make telling a worthy series\OVA\movie from a purely commercial one somewhat easier, albeit only a little.

Darth_Blade wrote:

Okay, so a law is passed that makes SOME shows unavailable to you. Where exactly is the tragedy? The only thing it's going to hurt is the budgets of anime distributors in the U.S. Not the viewers and it definitely won't hit the authors back in Japan.

You say "SOME" but I think that MOST hentai will eventually become a target. Some conventional anime will also get the boot if they look too much like hentai. That might have enough of an impact on hentai distributors to eventually close them down or cause them to cut way back on their titles. According to AN's John, the hentai market is actually a major cash cow for the anime companies that have adult divisions. Losing that revenue might be rather painful for anime companies in the middle of a down cycle and could possibly hasten their demise or weaken them to be point of being bought-out. Those sorts of developments could eventually be detrimental to the anime market at large.

Unless you're an unsympathetic bootlegger, you should be able to see how these issues could possibly affect all of us.

daxomni wrote:

You say "SOME" but I think that MOST hentai will eventually become a target.

And that's the problem. You're making a BROAD assumption on a law that was just used for the first time, on a person with a prior child porn conviction who was also downloading real child porn along with his hentai child porn. You're attempting to predict the future when that's just not something that can be done. You're making connections that currently cannot be made. The thing about America is that we realized from the very beginning that laws will not always be made perfectly. That's why they can be CHANGED if they start being used outside the scope of their original intention, are found to just be out of the scope of government authority, of if they need to be clarified or defined better. The way you get them changed is to vote somebody into office who has a different view then those currently in power who you don't agree with. Inevitably, this will happen, as it has always happened throughout our history.

daxomni wrote:

Unless you're an unsympathetic bootlegger, you should be able to see how these issues could possibly affect all of us.

A great many things could affect us. The time I decide to drive home today could decide if I end up in an accident or not, but that doesn't mean it will or that I should be horribly concerned that it might happen. If the signs start to point that way (which they don't. not in the slightest), then would be the time to start becoming worried.

I believe I've said my peace between this thread and the other. If you still wish to believe this is the beginning of the end, so be it.

Even if something like what has been discussed in this forum does happen. (Which I don't think it will. There are many good points brought up against the argument that I won't repeat) There's a large contingent of people out there, not just anime fans, but comic book people and the like who will fight tooth and nail should the U.S. Government make any kind of ban, plan to ban, or even think about banning any type of visual media. But should it happen, well to quote a favorite "If they outlaw anime, Then only outlaws will have anime!" Razz

Kazuki-san wrote:

And that's the problem. You're making a BROAD assumption on a law that was just used for the first time, on a person with a prior child porn conviction who was also downloading real child porn along with his hentai child porn.

You seem to be making the assumption that I'm drawing my conclusions based solely on this court case. I'm not. Many of my assumptions regarding the future of hentai and anime is actually based on what I view as a coming showdown between the entertainment media companies and the conservative family values crowd. Eventually one side will win this battle, and we'll all have to face the consequences. My current guess is that the recent testing of television and video game standards will give new momentum to the conservative side and that current and future laws and enforcement will eventually erode some of what we take for granted today by eventually resulting in some self-censorship. I know most of us could do without the loli crap, the raping, and the scat stuff, but I still don't think it should actually be made illegal. Once you start letting other people decide what you can watch you start to lose the ability to complain when you eventually find yourself disagreeing with their choices. In other words, if you willingly let them ban some hentai, you can't really complain that loudly if they eventually decide to simply ban all of it. Even the better hentai out there often has at least one scene of what could be considered loli, rape, or scat.

Kazuki-san wrote:

That's why they can be CHANGED if they start being used outside the scope of their original intention, are found to just be out of the scope of government authority, of if they need to be clarified or defined better. The way you get them changed is to vote somebody into office who has a different view then those currently in power who you don't agree with. Inevitably, this will happen, as it has always happened throughout our history.

I'm glad you have such undying faith in your fellow Americans and that you find the massive gears of justice so incredibly well balanced. It's too bad the reality of the situation doesn't exactly seem to mirror your rosy view. I'd venture to say that most Americans still don't really know that much about hentai, and if they did they'd probably be rather unsympathetic toward the more explicit titles. It's true that any unjust laws can eventually be overturned or their enforcement deprecated, but it takes a lot of work over a long period of time to build up the support of the nation and the politicians behind you even when you're right.

Kazuki-san wrote:

A great many things could affect us...

Your suggestion to wait until the wings fall off before you don your parachute didn't really sway me very much. Personally, I don't think this case is the new watermark, but eventually there will be such a case and it might be worth our while to keep up with this. The way the law is written could be used to prevent much of the hentai out there from making it stateside and eventually we may see this law applied to people who have committed no crime beyond owning a significant collection of hentai. At that time we'll finally know exactly what we can expect, but it might be too late to do much of anything about it by then.

Guess I'm not done after all...

daxomni wrote:

based on what I view as a coming showdown between the entertainment media companies and the conservative family values crowd.

I'm not sure that's what I would label it. People from all backgrounds have taken positions on both sides.

daxomni wrote:

Eventually one side will win this battle, and we'll all have to face the consequences. My current guess is that the recent testing of television and video game standards will give new momentum to the conservative side and that current and future laws and enforcement will eventually erode some of what we take for granted today by eventually resulting in some self-censorship.

This "battle" has been going on for years and years, and will likely continue to do so. The reason no one has been able to "win" so far, is that nobody has hold of enough votes to put some sort of finality on it. Instead concessions are continually made on each side.

daxomni wrote:

Once you start letting other people decide what you can watch you start to lose the ability to complain when you eventually find yourself disagreeing with their choices. In other words, if you willingly let them ban some hentai, you can't really complain that loudly if they eventually decide to simply ban all of it.

The same could be said for any law. If I let them tell me how fast I can drive, what's to stop them from grouping the lanes people can drive on the freeway by age? And how can I argue against such a law since I allowed them to tell me how fast to drive?

daxomni wrote:

I'm glad you have such undying faith in your fellow Americans and that you find the massive gears of justice so incredibly well balanced. It's too bad the reality of the situation doesn't exactly seem to mirror your rosy view.

And I would argue your view was too gloomy and cloudy. This is the way it has worked since the beginning of our country, and I see no reason it would magically stop working now. We've had attempts, and even countless success as passing completely and utterly stupid laws (this not being one of them), and yet we're still here.

daxomni wrote:

I'd venture to say that most Americans still don't really know that much about hentai, and if they did they'd probably be rather unsympathetic toward the more explicit titles.

Yes, most don't, which is exactly why they will not be launching a crusade to rid America of it. As I've already pointed out many times, the same sort of standards apply to actual porn. An industry which is making more money now then ever before. Actors depicting minors engaged in sexual conduct occurs rather often in it and things of such nature. Yet it oddly is still around and quite freely available. Strangely, you can even view it on your cable/satellite provider if you so chose, and big brother won't be busting down your door to drag you to jail.

daxomni wrote:

Your suggestion to wait until the wings fall off before you don your parachute didn't really sway me very much.

That's not my suggestion at all. My suggestion is to wait until there is a problem to bail out, instead of doing so when the plane hits a small pocket of turbulence.

daxomni wrote:

The way the law is written could be used to prevent much of the hentai out there from making it stateside

It could attempt to, but not in its current form. To do so, obscene would actually have to be defined, and in such a way that either it is expressely stated that "hentai" is obscene, or that every sort of act which could appear in one is. Which would then take out a large part of porn with it. It would also have to expressly define hentai as never, ever being even remotely possible that it could pass the SLAPS test, something that even actual porn can pass most of the time.

Kazuki-san wrote:

I believe I've said my peace between this thread and the other. If you still wish to believe this is the beginning of the end, so be it.

Thanks!

For my opinion. I don't think anything is going to happen. Not with this new law, anyways.
But I would rather like to see his group up as a procautionary measure. I like to be careful with some matters. While, I don't think this law is going to amount to anything, something may come up and when that time comes well at least theres a group to help protect against it or for it wether the case might be.
So, those who have a problem with the group(why I'm still unsure of when it's there for to protect the fans interest), it's not there to hurt the fans but help protect anime interest and while this law may not have an affect on anime, someday there could be one that will.So why give him a hard time about something that really is only trying to help the anime community?

Also to go on about the could factor, like Kazuki was stating anything could happen but why not have something already in place, just in case as a precautionary measure.If that anything becomes something very bad I would rather have a group already in place rather then wait for that anything to hit the fan when it would be too late to stop it. Waiting for something to happen is a fast way of loosing something. A small organization in place to help make sure something bad doesn't happen isn't a bad thing. Now if nothing bad happens even 50 years from now, well, hell at least there's still something up willing to defend it(Though if it lasts for 50 years I would be very surprised...no offense).
And believe me I don't think this is the beginning of the end but being prepared for anything is at most times the best course of action.
Besides having such a group may even help bring in new fans.(HIGHLY unlikely but still possible). Anyways, I'm happy he's taking the initiative to wanting to help with anime.Though at this time I'll agree it's really unnecessary but like I said I like to be careful and a precautionary measure like this is fine for me and if he wants to do it I won't give him a hard time about it and I don't think anyone else really should either.

EDIT: Also, please note: That I am in no way for child pornography. If it is in an anime I don't have it nor have I've seen it. But, However I don't want to see ANY anime banned as people could get a bad impression of anime as a whole and I hate to see such a thing happen. But let me make it clear while I don't like the idea of any child pronography being in anime I still wouldn't want it banned. And in no shape or form am I trying to defend the virginia guy. Because I do think he sick and I think pretty much anyone who gets off on the idea of children is sick but I don't want sick peoples mind affecting anime as whole.

Insert disclaimer: I am not a laywer.

Seriously... the laws are overcomplicated and far too wordy.

There is one thing that is worth nothing - if I'm reading the public law correctly, it means that our anime is pefectly safe from harm here...

In the terms of defining a minor -
Title V sec 502 subsection C where it mentions the amendments to section 2256 - part 11 specifically discusses the term "indistinguishable" and goes on to say This defintion does not apply to depictions that are drawings, cartoons, sculptures or paintings depicting minors or adults.

the law seems to be readily based on the concept of what might be considered life-like, or virtual - meaning that a normal person couldn't tell the difference if it was real, or not.

since anime is obviously not under that category, it seems to be excluded from this public law.

In regard to the man getting convicted, it seems that any form of pornography was what got the guy nailed. Any attempt to read more into the article than that's there as having an effect on our fandom - or anything else related to this specific case, is just overblown sensationalism.

if implemented properly this could be a threat but it probably wont in the short time bush has left in power. i would be More concerned with that other crazy anti piracy law that targets anyone who ones a copy of a movie file before it has its releese date. i know a lot of you people like to watch your fan subs for those years before you are able to buy your official DVD release

Kazuki-san wrote:

Guess I'm not done after all...

Well, if being "done" requires everyone to agree with you, then good luck.

Kazuki-san wrote:

Yes, most don't, which is exactly why they will not be launching a crusade to rid America of it.

All it takes is Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson to get up there and tell the country how evil anime is and 80% of America will suddenly have a crash course in the more explicit anime and hentai shows. I had no idea the teletubbies ever existed until these guys went off on it and the domestic media suddenly plastered it all over the airwaves.

Kazuki-san wrote:

As I've already pointed out many times, the same sort of standards apply to actual porn. An industry which is making more money now then ever before.

From what I understand...

1. 70% of the world's porn comes from the US
2. 90% of American porn comes from California
3. 85% of porn could be considered obscene in court

Here's what's generally presumed to have a realistic chance of being found obscene in most courts at this time:

Any form of anal sex, fisting, and/or ejaculation onto the face.

Guess how much porn has any of that? Well, about 85% apparently. The only modern porn that doesn't have at least some of it is the soft-core stuff. You're probably wondering why all the porn companies haven't been shut down or beaten into submission yet. Well, they almost where. Prior to the events of 9-11, John Ashcroft had announced that the Attorney General's office was in the process of preparing multiple obscenity charges against various pornography companies as part of a large scale campaign. So, in a very sick twist of fate, much of the porn being made today was (temporarily) saved only through tragedy.

Kazuki-san wrote:

Actors depicting minors engaged in sexual conduct occurs rather often in it and things of such nature. Yet it oddly is still around and quite freely available.

That is simply not true. Or, at least I hope it's not true. I have watched enough porn in my life to get a feel for what's out there and I've never seen anything that looked remotely like a minor involved in sexual conduct. Putting pigtails on a thirty year old woman is not quite the same thing as depicting a minor, nor is having porn stars pretend to be baby-sitting or any similar act as they could easily argue that they're simply depicting college students. By comparison, hentai often shows what honestly looks like girls well below the age of 18. It's not so realistic that most people with good eyesight would ever confuse an anime girl with a real girl, but the overall affect is fairly convincing. The box and the audio may say 18, but the graphics often don't match my perception of what 18 year olds would look like if animated.

Kazuki-san wrote:

My suggestion is to wait until there is a problem to bail out, instead of doing so when the plane hits a small pocket of turbulence.

I didn't say anything about jumping out. I merely referred to donning the parachute. Jumping out was your term.

Kazuki-san wrote:

To do so, obscene would actually have to be defined, and in such a way that either it is expressely stated that "hentai" is obscene, or that every sort of act which could appear in one is. Which would then take out a large part of porn with it.

You're jumping off the deep end by saying that the law would have to ban all hentai outright. That simply isn't correct and you know it. Also, most conventional porn is actually at risk of failing the obscenity test when it includes any of the three specific examples I listed above.

This all goes back to my original sentiment. If you trust the will of your nation to do the right thing all on its own and without any help, then you might want to pay a little more attention to it.

At the moment you seem to have wrongly assumed that...

1. Conventional porn is safe from prosecution
2. If porn is safe, then hentai must be safe
3. As long as most people don't know hentai exists, it will stay safe

I couldn't disagree more with those assumptions. In a way, I actually hope you're right, but so far I have yet to see any compelling evidence to support your views.

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