Forum - View topicAnswerman - Why Aren't Tezuka and Ishinomori Anime Popular In The West?
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Spawn29
Posts: 551 |
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It's the same with Go Nagai anime too. For some reason, modern anime fans view them as boring and cliche while they don't mind stuff like Gurren Lagann and Tokyo Ghoul which are influenced by elements from Getter Robo and Devilman. Even a modern upgrade like Shin Mazinger Z is still view as somehow too over the top and silly, but Gurren Lagann is okay.
Astro Boy 2003 and Cyborg 009 2001 did air on KidsWB! and Cartoon Network. I have seen fans that know about those two thanks to those two shows, but never catch on compare to Naruto and One Piece. Not to mention, we had older anime series that got new adaptions like Jojo and HxH and those became really popular. Which makes me wonder how something like Parasyte (Which is based on a 30 year old manga), Jojo and HxH got really popular with today's anime fandom, but stuff like the Netflix Cyborg 009 movie and the 2015 Ushio & Tora anime didn't become big in the US. |
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Stuart Smith
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That's how I feel about most Miyazaki works, to be honest. Nausicaa and Mononoke were good, but the 'Disney but more somber' films like Ponyo, Spirited Away, Totoro, or Howl's don't do anything for me. I'd also suspect that familiarity is why his name is pretty big in America. I'd go so far to say Miyazaki's best work was Castle of Cagliostro, which was a Lupin film. -Stuart Smith |
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EricJ2
 Posts: 4016 |
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In Japan, Tezuka is considered "sacred", in the US, he's considered "Cheap dubbed proto-anime cartoons from the 60's".
Because that's what they were to them, and that's what they were to us. The "sacred" designs of Astro Boy, Jungle Emperor or the Phoenix look like something out of the late 50's, when every animator (ahem, especially Tezuka  ) was trying to imitate Disney, which is what those of the right Boomer generation remember about their childhoods--Not the new "current" trends of anime.
Think it's best summed up in the established theory that we only got Disney's Lion King because Disney execs had gone to Japan in '87, during a certain Tezuka 20th anniversary, saw anime for literally the first time, and didn't recognize Lum, Gundam robots or Totoro, but..."Look, there's KIMBA!" Also, modern anime, trying to keep great icons sacred, can try to revive Black Jack in current reboots, or Astro Boy in the '08 movie, but it doesn't get away from the fact that Tezuka's own stories still tended to be a bit....goofy. (Anybody ever find a rare fansub of "Bagi: the Monster of Nature" online? Yyyeah.  )
He wrote for children's titles back in the day before it became an industry, and writing for children, the plot development, characterization and story resolutions tend to come from the craziest, most nonsensical places that generally would make sense to a 9-yo. Japanese reader, but not anybody else. You can generally tell a story Tezuka wrote himself, from a modern-day revival by more current authors. |
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Lord Geo
Posts: 2569 Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey |
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Parasyte was heavily updated & redesigned visually to appeal to a modern audience, like by having it take place in modern times rather than the 90s & not sticking exactly to Hitoshi Iwaaki's style stringently. JoJo simply has a relatively unique look to it in general, which hooks many people in right away, & Hunter X Hunter is from the creator of Yu Yu Hakusho, so there's a visual familiarity for viewers there. In comparison, the recent Cyborg 009 productions have all been done via CG (which turns off a lot of people right away), while Ushio & Tora doubled-down on its 90s aesthetic, which made it unique amongst its current peers, but also likely turned off people who weren't looking for that style in the first place. |
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grooven
Posts: 1425 Location: Canada |
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I also find that Tezuka properties haven't been marketed as well as they could be. I'm a huge fan of the works and see tons of missed marketing potential in both merchandise and productions. Even in Japan I can hardly find any merchandise for Tezuka, save for the museum (where I go ever time I visit to buy stuff). Only recently Unico had a 40th anniversary where lots of merchandise came out , but again he could be marketed like Sanrio and have lots of tv series and merchandise all the time because he is adorable for one and the story has so much room for unlimited stories.
While people may think Tezuka are simple stories, many are really complex and dark and of done the right way could be brought to the forefront. Many have beautiful messages about life that trump many Disney films. |
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MarshalBanana
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0nsen
 Posts: 256 |
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Because anime from before 1981 suck. I don't know why that is, but everything from before 1981 is just crap, and I've looked hard. The new Cyborg 009 movie from 2012 was awesome, imho. There's just something cool about outrunning the blast of an atomic bomb and the other action parts of that movie were equally just fun. I also like 009-1 from 2006. But stuff from before 1981? It's all kind of stupid and predictable.
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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And then there's Doraemon. Personally, I'd say the series's overall message about not being too dependent on convenient high-tech devices becomes increasingly relevant with each decade, and even besides that, it's just plain fun and I would love it to be more popular internationally. But it's old and weird looking and the kids don't want it.
The thing is, if it really couldn't hold up to the present, it'd have been largely forgotten by now, especially as works of fiction that they are. People continue to watch old movies like Bambi and Jaws, classic television like The Outer Limits and The Simpsons, listen to musicians from decades ago like The Beatles and AC/DC, read comic books that have been around for a while like Watchmen and Bone, and, of course, read time-tested literature like the works of J.R.R. Tolkien or Robert Louis Stevenson. None of those have been made obsolete with people in the modern day making works that built upon those classics, and frankly, neither have the likes of Astro Boy and Kimba the White Lion. (And while I enjoy Cyborg 009, it is quite grounded in the Cold War, which becomes increasingly difficult to integrate into stories today.) However, it is absolutely true that the works of Tezuka and Ishinomori appealed to tastes of their own time, tastes that don't necessarily apply today, especially with western anime fans, who got into anime in the 1980's 1990's, or the 21st century for totally different reasons than they might have had in the 1960's. (That being said, I'm sure nostalgia is a big part of it too. After all, Toy Story 3 bombed in every part of the world where Toy Story 1 was not released.)
While wish fulfillment is not the only reason someone would watch an anime series, I cannot deny that it is present in a lot of major series, especially those in the 21st century. You got protagonists like Light in Death Note, Kirito in Sword Art Online, Ichigo in Bleach, and to a lesser extent Saitama in One Punch Man, Eren in Attack on Titan, and Natsu in Fairy Tail, not to mention all of the male centers of all those harem comedies. (And we're soon going to get another big one, Asta in Black Clover.) All of these protagonists find themselves in positions of superiority, receive power by sheer chance and/or birthright, resolve conflicts with ease, or befriend people with ease, with a cast of supporting characters who admire them. By contrast, except for video games (as you literally are playing as the protagonists), you find far fewer of these in any other medium (including Japanese live-action). As sympathetic as they might be at times, few people would want to be like Michael Corleone, Jerry Seinfeld (the character), Andy Dufresne, or Walter White. This does not mean they are bad or low-quality, by the way. Wish fulfillment alone does not equate to popularity; it has to have a compelling narrative too. James Bond is undeniably a wish fulfillment protagonist too (he beds beautiful women on a routine basis, stops large-scale villains, travels to exotic locations, says a lot of witty things, and does a lot of thrilling stuff--and to boot, his theme songs talk about how awesome he is), but on top of that, his movies tend to be quite fun to watch, which is why he's a household name to where he's pretty much claimed the surname "Bond" in fiction. (Though personally, my favorite Bond movies, Goldfinger and Skyfall, are the ones that depict him as a man tortured by his mistakes.)
Makes me think about how One Piece has more problems with getting western anime fans to watch it compared to Naruto or Attack on Titan because of its western-influenced art style. At every fan panel about One Piece, a host will eventually ask if the art style was an initial turnoff, and half the room would raise their hands. Me, as a lifetime fan of western animation, it was because of the western-influenced style that got me into it in the first place. No doubt for the same reason, I like reading and watching the works of Osamu Tezuka.
Network standards and practices have loosened up in some areas (such as the words "die" and "death" being accepted on most networks now) while tightening up in some other areas (such as sexually suggestive scenes). But I think it's more recognizing 1) that plenty of teenagers and adults watch these shows aimed at children too, eliminating the executives forcing them to "dumb down" the content, and 2) that children can handle continuity and emotional development. Well, that and the parents started caring less, which is where all that came from in the first place. Except for shows aimed at very young children, I don't think there was ever any voluntary dumbing down by the writing team. You get into animated television because you love animation. And kids know when they're being talked down to, and they won't stand for that. With few exceptions, shows that do that become quickly canceled and forgotten. (I forgot what his name was, but the vice president at Marvel said that kids "can spot a stinker from a mile away.") The cartoon series that are remembered fondly today, and the ones today that will be fondly remembered decades from now, are the ones that refuse to talk down to their audience.
The most extreme example would be Osomatsu, which enjoyed reasonable popularity outside of Japan, but I'd bet that's due to it being a new take on the series that worked very well for it, as well as it being the rare satire from Japan that actually has teeth. |
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 6030 |
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That's a hell of leap in logic. |
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Spawn29
Posts: 551 |
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I was going by what I have seen in the modern US anime & manga fandom. I see a lot of modern fans (Both the last generation (The Cartoon Network gen fans) and the current generation) have no interest in Go Nagai anime and manga. People view stuff like Cutie Honey, Mazinger, Getter Robo, Devilman, Violence Jack and his other titles as boring and stupid. I remember trying to show Getter Robo Armageddon and Shin Mazinger Z to Gurren Laggan fans and they said that it was dumb and stupid despite the fact that TTGL is inspired by stuff from the Mazinger and Getter Robo series. Not to mention everyone acts like Pacific Rim is a knock off of Evagelion and that Eva & Gundam did everything in the Mecha genre first  .
Same with Devilman when I see fans that bash on the OVAs and the manga for being cliche, borning, too violent and gross. It's worst with Violence Jack seeing that anime has a bad rep on the web for several years now when no one really hated on it back in the old days of the US Anime & Manga fandom. Last edited by Spawn29 on Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Farewell Days of Youth
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You.....are kidding, right? |
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Spawn29
Posts: 551 |
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I feel like the current anime fandom that watches stuff on streaming sites like CR, Netflix and several others were probably not even alive or too young when YYH was popular in the US going from what I've seen. It still surprises me how the new versions Jojo, Lupin and HxH did well in today's generation of anime fans, but Ushio and Tora 2015, the new Cyborg 009 movies, Shin Mazinger Z and Space Battleship Yamato 2199 never did. I also think being CG is a dumb reason not to watch something. People will hate on CG anime and yet they are okay watching Pixar movies .
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zrnzle500
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I'm on the older end of that generation, but I remember seeing YYH on Toonami all those years ago. Though I've been watching it the whole way through recently and I realized just how little I saw of it when I was younger - I'm on episode 82 and I haven't seen an episode that I saw before, though I did recognize one location and (most of) the main characters of course. But I don't think HxH (2011)'s success has much to do with prior experience with Togashi's work, but rather that HxH is just that good - I'd go so far to say it is the best shonen. I'd put Jojo and Lupin in the same category of being timelessly good I don't know about the sales but Ushio and Tora not doing well in the West is news to me, as it was pretty well rated on this site, both by reviewers and fans. It certainly wasn't as successful as those other series but I think it did well enough. I think Yamato 2199's lack of success in the West at least has nothing to do with the content but rather that it isn't really available AFAIK (I think Mike Toole had to import it from Italy?). |
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catbot158
 Posts: 232 Location: United States |
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Great article!
I did get into some of the the Leiji Matsumoto anime (Captain Harlock and Galaxy Express 999) and I got excited when Matsumoto references popped up in Steven Universe. They are great stepping stones for anyone who's willing to try classic anime, and I hope Galaxy Express 999 gets a new adaptation. I also like Urusei Yatsura and Kimagure Orange Road, and all its 80s goodness. I just can't into Tezuka and Ishinomori anime, though; they're too leaning towards old Western cartoons. Not that that's a bad thing considering anime's origins, but it's just too weird to watch purely for enjoyment. [/i] |
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Cutiebunny
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Have you watched Oniisama e...? If the visual style of Versailles didn't bother you, I think you'll like it. It's basically a 1970s Japanese version of "Mean Girls". This would be a title I'd recommend for younger viewers, or at least those in junior high or high school, even though I thought Kaoru's ending seemed so rushed and bizarre. |
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