Forum - View topicANNCast - The Thing About My Dokes
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Malsang
 Posts: 53 |
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I think the *premise* of Rebellion is actually pretty great, yes even including the "twist". If the movie had ended 15 minutes earlier and Homura had just gone to heaven it would *not* have been a better film: yeah Homura's character would've remained solid, but the film as a whole would have been a trite, boring adventure, the outcome of which we already knew by the end of the TV series. That type of ending could have been made to work, but not with the film we were given.
The problem is that the execution of Rebellion is sorely lacking. The twist should not have felt like a twist, but a natural progression of events that the movie builds up to, much like how the TV series culminates in Madoka's wish to become a magical girl. I'm sorry, but one conversation between an amnesiac Madoka should not have been the only catalyst for such drastic action on Homura's part, even if I agree that her resolve at the TV series' end was a coping facade and that she would have become a wreck as time went on. Nor do I buy the "well she's been through so much shit, it's no surprise she went insane" excuse either, because insanity in fiction rarely resembles insanity in real life, and is more often just used as a lazy justification by the writer to make their character act in whatever illogical way is convenient for the story. Homura's heel turn should have indeed been a *surprise*, but the movie ought to have consistently foreshadowed and rationalized it, along with laying out just enough in-universe mechanics for the results of her actions to make sense ("it's love" Really? Just... really?). In any case, I do think we will see a sequel eventually, years from now. It's too popular to forget about (the money it made), and a reboot could never surpass the original TV series. It's got a concept film floating about, which simply does not happen for most anime series. I doubt Urobuchi will be involved again, which means any sequel probably won't be worth watching, but then again if Urobuchi's not genuinely interested in continuing the Madoka project I doubt he'd be able to make a worthy sequel either. I guess we'll see how Magia Record does, but my expectations could not be lower: from the translations I've read, the story starts with an interesting premise but quickly devolves into nonsense, including ultra-edgy elements that feel like they belong in Magical Girl Raising Project, Magical Girl Site, and the like. Kinda sad to think those type of shows are Madoka's legacy. I have to give Rebellion credit for one thing: it's genuinely made me want to write fanfiction to continue the goddamn story myself if I have to. |
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tojikomori
 Posts: 71 Location: Minnesota |
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I agreed with a lot of what was said about Rebellion in this episode, but Jake's bit about Kyubey was one big exception:
Kyubey's original portrayal as a dispassionate utilitarian gave the series' conclusion some moral ambiguity: it was never made clear that the Law of Cycles provided the same counterbalance to entropy that the Incubators sought; only that it was a less horrible arrangement for magical girls. Perhaps Madoka was faced with a sort of trolley problem, and chose love for her friends to the eventual doom of the universe at large. As uncomfortable as that interpretation is, it resonated strongly with me: a story that pitched broad-minded utilitarian ethics against a more immediate empathy for our closer loved ones. By exposing Kyubey as a greedy fraud, Rebellion suggests the Incubators' story about universal entropy may itself have been a lie, or at least that their interest in amassing energy from magical girls went beyond it. Either way, it reinterpreted the story as a simple battle between underhanded Incubators vs. their victims, which is much less challenging and interesting than the original story. Great episode overall, though. I thought Zac's summary of Rebellion hit the nail on the head: it was a beautiful mistake. |
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Shiflan
 Posts: 418 |
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In my opinion the events of Rebellion were 100% expected to happen and the "twist" really isn't much of a surprise, if you were paying attention. spoiler[Homura's change to Homucifer is perfectly in line with the recurring themes of "balance" and "fate" in the TV series. Throughout the TV it is stressed over and over again that the world is always in balance. So if Madoka ascends and becomes a god-like figure (Madokami, Ultimate Madoka, whatever you want to call her) it is expected that there will be some kind of balancing force as well. And that's Homucifer.] And for that matter even Homura's monologue at the very beginning of Rebellion is some pretty heavy foreshadowing of what's to come. Anyone who was blindsided by the ending wasn't paying attention. |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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While I agree with you completely that the original is a wonderful self-contained story, I disagree that it has anything to do with hope. In fact, I'd say it's a rather powerful statement that says the exact opposite. spoiler[It's all about futility. Madoka made a huge wish, so major that it literally resulted in her ascending to godhood & re-wrote the universe. And what do we have to show for it? something very very minor: instead of becoming witches the girls "disappear into the void, taken by the law of cycles". The statement is that Madoka's wish was so powerful that it rewrote the universe...but there was no real benefit from that. Everything looks nearly exactly the same. In fact, the changes which do exist are deliberately presented to be as subtle as possible. I.e. the word for the girls new enemies, wraiths, is majuu. It's no accident that is nearly identical to their old enemy, witches, or majou. QB is still up to his old tricks. The girls still battle supernatural forces. There is no glimmer of hope or sign that things are better. In fact, all the things we see post-Madokami seem to emphasize, in extreme detail, just how similar things are. That reinforces the notion that nothing appreciable has changed. The director is telling us: look, the world has been totally reborn and what do we have to show for it? Nothing.] |
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Hiroki not Takuya
 Posts: 2538 |
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^^I'll disagree that the new universe Madoka made in the TV series is no better than the old, spoiler[girls aren't emotionally tortured to the point of overwhelming despair and have a "heaven" with Madoka to go to when they can't handle the stress]. I'd call that much better than the old order. Also agree with Zack that Rebellion was a poor story and had no reason to exist except to try to milk the fans of money by undoing the already completed (epicly good) story. Already 5 years now?? Well, no more sequels yet so I hope someone chokes on this anniversary because all they got for Rebellion was a one-time "plus-up" in revenue and nothing more.
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Southkaio
Posts: 346 |
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Was Rebellion really a complete failure? If I am right, is this is the reason why there is no continuation?
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invalidname
 Contributor Posts: 2455 Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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I haven't made it through the entire Rebellion discussion yet, but as for the pre-episode schtick of Jacob having not made it through all of Higurashi yet, I forgot that the last time they were complaining about series reviews of shows that are too goddamn long, I put together an iCloud Numbers spreadsheet of every ANNCast series review:
https://www.icloud.com/numbers/0_JRw3RHi8hoVeB6cmIbPeKNw#anncast-series-discussions The longest, by far, is Fullmetal Alchemist at 113, since that covers both the 2003 series (49 episodes) and Brotherhood (64). After that however, we have a cluster of four-cour shows with:
At 51 episodes plus 9 OVAs and a movie that is effectively two episodes, Higurashi is counted by Wikipedia as having 62 episodes, making it the second-longest single series covered by ANNCast, after FMA:B. So yeah, we can cut Zac and Jake some slack. Also, next's week's (?) Higurashi-cast will be the first series review since Gundam Wing back on March 2. God, guys, maybe a one-cour show next time? Princess Jellyfish, Anohana, Flip Flappers, Yurikuma Arashi… something you can get through in a weekend, y'know? |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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The girls are still emotionally tortured to the point of despair. That hasn't changed: 1) spoiler[QB is still around, and recall that what he's doing is converting emotional swings into energy. if there was no suffering there'd be no emotional swings for him to gather energy from.] 2) Recall from the dialogue thatspoiler[ "once a girl suffers equal to the good she wished for the she becomes a witch". Suffering first, then witchdom. The new post-Madokami world replacing witchdom with "taken by the law of cycles" does nothing to take away that suffering.] I have watched the TV many times through and I am thoroughly convinced that if the message were meant to be a positive, happy, one then the ending would have been very different. There is no glimmer of hope or sign that things are better. In fact, all the details post-Madokami seem to emphasize, in extreme detail, just how similar things are. That reinforces the notion that nothing appreciable has changed. Think of the magnitude of what happened in the plotspoiler[ (literal world-destroying & recreating the entire universe) for such a minor change, and then the director's decision to show us that the post-wish world is pretty much identical right afterward]. That doesn't suggest "happy" to me. That suggests "futility". For example, we see a scene spoiler[in the new world in which the girls have been fighting wraiths and then poof, Sayaka is gone. If the ending was meant to be happy the dialogue might have said something about her "being in a better place now" or something similar.] But instead the girls react just like they did in the early part of the series. There is no change for the positive; they behave no differently than they previously did. Likewise, a scene might have been included that spoiler[shows a positive experience for the dead girls soul(s), happy in heaven with Madokami.] Nope, we don't see that.. Vanished into the void with not even the slightest hint of anything positive or happy. I don't think those are careless omissions. I think the ending was carefully and deliberately crafted to be nearly identical to the beginning, and the fact that the differences are so minor is deliberate. listen to Homura's monologue at the very beginning of Rebellion. She quite clearly states that the magical girls fight a never-ending, futile, struggle in a universe that forever repeats cycles of suffering and pain. Personally I think that's a very strong message. It's one thing to fight to do good if you always win and are invincible (i.e. Superman or Jesus). It's another thing entirely to fight to do good when you always lose in the end and never really effect any sort of change. Powerful stuff, which I why I love the show so much. |
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Hiroki not Takuya
Posts: 2538 |
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^^Never said the ending of the story was completely happy or was supposed to be, just better than before if for nothing more than the addition spoiler[of a "heaven"]. That latter is definitely mentioned as spoiler[Madoka says "the others are waiting for me" and "you'll definitely see me again"] when she leaves Homura and connected with the scene with Sayaka where she spoiler[conducts her away after witnessing the altered future for Kyosuke]. It isn't mentioned in the dialog of the altered Sayaka ending because the girls don't know what happens when they disappear in the new universal order so I don't think one can point to that to prove they cease to exist.
And I saw no evidence of despair in that alteration, Mami explicitly states the law of cycles that once a girl's magic is exhausted, they have to disappear to keep misfortune from coming to balance the hope they give. It was stated as a matter of fact, a recognition that the cost of giving hope is to disappear at some point so I'd say that was better than the cost being despair leading to spoiler[violence that has to be remedied by annihilation]. In fact, it seems Mami is stating that a level of satisfaction can be derived from knowing that relative to the result of disappearance and possibly hints that the girls go somewhere else (though that latter may be a stretch of inference). Actually, please don't misunderstand, you are correct that Madoka's alteration doesn't change the human condition that the girls are fighting to keep from deteriorating so there is an element of futility but as Mami says "you are becoming hope itself, the hope of every magical girl" so that I think the message isn't that everything's futile but that by sacrifice and following the lead of love, hope can be created and a bad situation can be improved. I think that's a powerful and positive message. |
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Zeino
Posts: 1098 |
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And personally, I think you are being over-cynical and misinterpreting Madoka to be as nihilistic as possible which it is not. |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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I'm not sure how that is possible. Homura comes right out and tells us
Gen Urobuchi also said it himself: I have nothing but contempt for the deceitful thing men call 'happiness,' and find myself with no choice but to push my characters, whom I pour my heart and soul out to create, into the abyss of tragedy. I'm honestly confused as to where anyone sees "a happy ending" in PMMM TV. Madoka spoiler[committed the ultimate sacrifice and was so powerful as to become sort of god and literally recreate the entire universe. What does the director choose show us about the "new world" after this event has taken place? It's a world which is very nearly identical to the previous world. There are no happy scenes at the end of episode 12. ...there are only scenes nearly identical to the way things were before, as well as the tragedy of Madoka being forgotten paired with "drawing in the sand fading away" symbolism. ] The silence is deafening, as they say. Please don't take that as a criticism either. I think that makes the story so much more powerful. PMMM is masterpiece material, as is Rebellion. |
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Shiflan
Posts: 418 |
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I do agree with you that there is an improvement present. But I think the fact that the improvement is so minuscule in the grand scheme of things suggests the theme leans more towards futility or being stuck in a never-ending repeat. The director shows usspoiler[ the new world in episode 12. What did he choose to show us? He could have shown us scenes that emphasized how things were improved or different. That didn't happen. Instead, what we see is virtually exactly the same as it was before. The visuals then show Madoka's face drawn in the sand at the beach...a common literary device for impermanence. ] That was all a deliberate choice, and it tells us something. Now maybe one can look at this like a flame, however tiny, that manages to remain lit in a huge hurricane of suck, and seeing that tiny little thing can inspire hope? I think that's totally valid. But I wouldn't call it a "happy ending" by any means. And like I posted above, I think that's a good thing. It gives the show a lot more emotional impact than another "and they all lived happily ever after...." |
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Issac Sarrowtail
Posts: 95 |
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Hey Zack, Hey Jacob....
Yeah.... So madoka.... again... You know I love Madoka for what it is, but when I heard of a sequel movie... I will admit to being a little worried over it. If only because the TV series is very conclusive when it comes to the ending, I wasn't sure what more you could add to it. It turned out that I was right, and Gen himself was having issues with the ending because of it. I will have to agree with you, Zack. It's a rather cynical production to produce more content for a budding franchise. I am up for that content, honestly, but you DO see the strings that prop this movie up. It's rather annoying that this was how we build more (OR not, as it turns out). That is the thing however, I do want more madoka and Rebellion manages to reset the conflicts (or frame them anew). I am still rather vested in seeing what more can be done with this, if possible. Of the twist ending? If I can sum up my emotions to it in one word, this is the only one that comes to mind: Betrayal. I feel that the twist was shocking because of how much it betrays the series and Homura as a character. Sure I get that it also showcases Homura's willingness to suffer and the pain she has to do so, but I honestly didn't think that they would do so under the context of making her trash the very thing that learned through out the series. That she needs to let go. While it does excite me to seem them move forward pass this, it is depressing that this is how it comes about. What Homura did was selfish and beyond the pale, I am not sure that you can redeem a character like that outside of a confrontation. And as much as I want that clash, I wish to not have it just the same... It would only add to the sense of betrayal that I feel over Rebellion making Homura the villain. That said, Magica Record is a thing, I hope that through that we might get more answers. |
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invalidname
Contributor Posts: 2455 Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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I was a little disappointed that IIRC we didn't hear a mention during this entire episode that there is going to be a new Madoka Magica anime series next year based on the Magia Record mobage. Problem is, there's no English version, and it's not really easy for ANN to have eyes on what's going on in all the various Japan-based mobage that tie into anime franchises (though I've said before, mobage coverage is a blind spot that would be great to fix, if practical). I've played Magia Record a little bit -- I even bought an Iroha nendoroid at AWA because I like the design -- but I don't read Japanese well enough to get anything out of the storyline. The pitch is that the time-sensitive Homura becomes aware of a city where magical girls can be "saved", and in the game there's an ability to mix magical girl and witch powers. It's possible that what's going on is that this is a side story that takes place during one of Homura's many time loops, which is tidy if true because then it can all be swept aside by Homura's next loop or universe-reset. There's a pretty heroic effort to summarize the Magia Record story over on the Puella Magi wiki. |
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BodaciousSpacePirate
 Subscriber Posts: 3018 |
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I've been told by people who are current with the game's storyline that there's definitely a clear, in-universe explanation for the differences in continuity between the show and the game. |
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