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If this results in 'corrected' Mushoku Tensei volumes being released, good. Same for Classroom of Elite.

Had I known the volumes had been edited, that would have been a lost purchase on my part at the time. But good if they learn from this going forward...

AmpersandsUnited wrote:

Ironically there was a bit of discourse a week or two ago from some industry translators on social media insisting they don't change or censor works and fans are just paranoid and can't let go of the 4Kids days. Whoops.

You're really gonna compare these two cases to the vast amount of anime and manga that get licensed and translated every year, no, every season? I have to wonder what kind of logic you're using to arrive at the conclusion that the 0.1% somehow defines the 99.9%.

AmpersandsUnited wrote:

Telu wrote:

Damn, looks like it's time to learn japanese.

I'd certainly encourage it as being able to consume Japanese media directly without the reliance or interference of American companies is always great and probably going to become a necessity in the near future at this rate as every season emboldens companies to drop or censor titles they license, but Mushoku Tensei's been fantranslated for years

"You can just pirate it" is not a good argument since alot of people want to support the original creators

CrypticPurpose wrote:

What is it with the Western desire to multilate Eastern works based on the local ethical standards of the moment? When I think of what would have happened to historic works had the same willingness to change fundamental elements been around, it is really scary. Are the people of tomorrow going to see nothing but sanitized versions of the art of today?

That's already been happening since the banning and removal of old classic cartoons shorts decades ago. However, in this day and age it's impossible to do that thanks to the internet. All the censoring of older movies on Disney+ was quickly noticed by people and called out. And even when industry folk refuse to budge on the issue, the internet preserves all media and information. You can watch the unedited versions of Lilo & Stitch, Aladdin, or any other Disney owned piece of media very easily if one so chooses.

You absolutely can not censor things in this day and age. I mean that in the proverbial sense. People will know. Information is impossible to hide in 2021. They absolutely will know what a character originally said or how a scene originally played out. Companies will still do it of course, either out of moral reasons or others, but despite whatever certain English translators might think, they do not actually get to dictate what is real canon or not.

Greed1914 wrote:

ximpalullaorg wrote:

This is extremely grave, and not because of the quality of the work (I didn't read the novel and I'm not watching the anime).
This shouldn't have happened to begin with. If the work has - to some - questionable material and the publisher feels there may be a backlash, it would be better to avoid licensing it in the first place.
Sanitizing it not only is stupid because nowadays people will notice it, but also because it solves nothing. And sets a dangerous precedent.

Overall, I think I agree with you. It sort of seems like they were trying to have it both ways where they wanted to publish something that has decent sales potential, but didn't want the baggage that came with it. I don't hold it against a publisher if they look at something and decide it isn't something they care to publish, like with the recent news about Redo of Healer not finding publishers wanting to localize it. It's their call to make, and leaves it available if someone else is willing. Localizing something, but making sizeable changes in the process, strays into editing the content, if you ask me. Translation isn't a direct swapping of words, but a choice of wording that alters the context is a problem. Depending on the particular person's knowledge, they might not even be aware that it happened. I've only seen the first episode of Jobless so far, but I was already getting some very sketchy vibes from Paul already, but that doesn't mean I would have necessarily realized that what happened with Lilia wasn't a consensual thing that happened to involve adultery, and was actually a noble forcing himself on a servant. Either would have explained why I didn't like the guy, but the degree is significantly different.

As a detractor to the series, I also think this is really bad and it relates to what you outlined above. Discussing why I don't like it with a casual fan who's only read the translation becomes that much harder, specifically what is noted as rape only becomes 'sketchy' and the other person who doesn't know the baggage can assume overreaction and dismiss legitimate criticism because come on, it's right there on the page as only 'cheating and womanizing'. It's hard enough sometimes to talk about media (mis)management of consent or thematic elements of entertainment in general, and this doesn't help.

Last edited by Melicans on Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

I think it is a bit unreasonable to expect a publisher to know everything about a series before licensing it. When an anime is licensed they only have a limited amount of material to look at beforehand (from an old Answerman column I can't seem able to find) and it's not unusual for it to be a shot in the dark. The same is true of publishers. Usually there seems to be only a couple of volumes out in Japan before it gets licensed for English publication; cases where a considerable amount is available like High School DxD, Sword Art Online, or in this case Mushoku Tensei, seem to be on the less common side (obviously it does not apply in this particular case but it is applicable to licensing in general).

Besides that, does anyone in this thread saying that "they should know" have any involvement in the licensing process? If so, can you please describe exactly what happens to license a series? I'd like to know:

1) How much material is given from Japan to the English publisher before a deal is made? A volume? Two or more? I wouldn't be surprised if it is just a generic description and a few sample pages;
2) Is someone responsible for reading the existing fan translations (assuming they do exist and the quality is actually readable) for a general understanding?
3) If there is, is that person also responsible for looking at any discussion online about the series, in both languages, (assuming it exists) to discover any moral issues that may come up in, say, volume 9 before the licensing takes place?
4) What amount of money is set aside for all of these manhours before even deciding to invest in licensing and publishing a series?

It is inconceivable to me to expect Seven Seas, Yen Press, J-Novel, or any others to know of what is essentially a background detail in this example (Paul raping Lilia is hardly integral to the actual plot of the series) before they even decide to license it.

To clarify, I am not saying that the detail itself is unimportant in discussion. I am saying that expecting a publisher to know about two sentences in a 17 volume series is idiotic. Making slight changes to make a series more palatable to general readers is hardly offensive in my eyes. I don't think anyone should expect a publisher to know all of this background stuff before licensing the series, particularly when it is relatively unimportant to the full context of the series.

The issue more concerning is the editing decision to outright remove chunks of prose that are apparently necessary to comprehend what is happening.

Melicans wrote:

Making slight changes to make a series more palatable to general readers is hardly offensive in my eyes. I don't think anyone should expect a publisher to know all of this background stuff before licensing the series, particularly when it is relatively unimportant to the full context of the series.

How would they know what's important to the full context of the series, given all the issues you listed?

Melicans wrote:

I think it is a bit unreasonable to expect a publisher to know everything about a series before licensing it. When an anime is licensed they only have a limited amount of material to look at beforehand (from an old Answerman column I can't seem able to find) and it's not unusual for it to be a shot in the dark. The same is true of publishers. Usually there seems to be only a couple of volumes out in Japan before it gets licensed for English publication; cases where a considerable amount is available like High School DxD, Sword Art Online, or in this case Mushoku Tensei, seem to be on the less common side (obviously it does not apply in this particular case but it is applicable to licensing in general).

Besides that, does anyone in this thread saying that "they should know" have any involvement in the licensing process? If so, can you please describe exactly what happens to license a series? I'd like to know:

1) How much material is given from Japan to the English publisher before a deal is made? A volume? Two or more? I wouldn't be surprised if it is just a generic description and a few sample pages;
2) Is someone responsible for reading the existing fan translations (assuming they do exist and the quality is actually readable) for a general understanding?
3) If there is, is that person also responsible for looking at any discussion online about the series, in both languages, (assuming it exists) to discover any moral issues that may come up in, say, volume 9 before the licensing takes place?
4) What amount of money is set aside for all of these manhours before even deciding to invest in licensing and publishing a series?

It is inconceivable to me to expect Seven Seas, Yen Press, J-Novel, or any others to know of what is essentially a background detail in this example (Paul raping Lilia is hardly integral to the actual plot of the series) before they even decide to license it.

To clarify, I am not saying that the detail itself is unimportant in discussion. I am saying that expecting a publisher to know about two sentences in a 17 volume series is idiotic. Making slight changes to make a series more palatable to general readers is hardly offensive in my eyes. I don't think anyone should expect a publisher to know all of this background stuff before licensing the series, particularly when it is relatively unimportant to the full context of the series.

The issue more concerning is the editing decision to outright remove chunks of prose that are apparently necessary to comprehend what is happening.

I don't even know what tell a person that seems to think that a licensing company doesn't take the time to research the material they're licensing... Do you think they just go "oh that sells? Time for a bidding war where you throw out all our money without even knowing wtf the material is about"

Also, we're talking about those 2 sentences right now, so clearly, they were important enough.

Melicans wrote:

I think it is a bit unreasonable to expect a publisher to know everything about a series before licensing it. When an anime is licensed they only have a limited amount of material to look at beforehand (from an old Answerman column I can't seem able to find) and it's not unusual for it to be a shot in the dark. The same is true of publishers. Usually there seems to be only a couple of volumes out in Japan before it gets licensed for English publication; cases where a considerable amount is available like High School DxD, Sword Art Online, or in this case Mushoku Tensei, seem to be on the less common side (obviously it does not apply in this particular case but it is applicable to licensing in general).

Besides that, does anyone in this thread saying that "they should know" have any involvement in the licensing process? If so, can you please describe exactly what happens to license a series? I'd like to know:

1) How much material is given from Japan to the English publisher before a deal is made? A volume? Two or more? I wouldn't be surprised if it is just a generic description and a few sample pages;
2) Is someone responsible for reading the existing fan translations (assuming they do exist and the quality is actually readable) for a general understanding?
3) If there is, is that person also responsible for looking at any discussion online about the series, in both languages, (assuming it exists) to discover any moral issues that may come up in, say, volume 9 before the licensing takes place?
4) What amount of money is set aside for all of these manhours before even deciding to invest in licensing and publishing a series?

It is inconceivable to me to expect Seven Seas, Yen Press, J-Novel, or any others to know of what is essentially a background detail in this example (Paul raping Lilia is hardly integral to the actual plot of the series) before they even decide to license it.

To clarify, I am not saying that the detail itself is unimportant in discussion. I am saying that expecting a publisher to know about two sentences in a 17 volume series is idiotic. Making slight changes to make a series more palatable to general readers is hardly offensive in my eyes. I don't think anyone should expect a publisher to know all of this background stuff before licensing the series, particularly when it is relatively unimportant to the full context of the series.

The issue more concerning is the editing decision to outright remove chunks of prose that are apparently necessary to comprehend what is happening.

Firstly, as you mentioned, the localizer is not the author so they don't know how the plot is going to progress, so they don't know what's going to be important or not. I don't think this applies in this particular case, but it was a major issue in 4kids time where they would cut out or change things they didn't think were important, only for them to become important later on, at which point they'd have to change and modify things more in order to get things to fit and it ending up a mess. 4kids editing was crazy, but the concept applies to smaller edits like this. Especially if you're not just looking at it in terms of understanding the plot, but the overarching themes and characterization, which even in this case is really different and clearly diverges from the original work and the authors intent.

Secondly, lets say for the sake of argument that the detail is unimportant. In that case, does it matter if it's left in? As you mentioned its two lines in a 17 volume series. Will anyone really care all that much about about two sentences in a 17 volume series? So why even change it?

By doing things like this, they're risking screwing things up for no real reason. Thus, localization changes like this as a practice should be avoided and discouraged. I also think making such changes is disrespectful to the original author and original work but that's a whole other discussion.

Melicans wrote:

I think it is a bit unreasonable to expect a publisher to know everything about a series before licensing it. When an anime is licensed they only have a limited amount of material to look at beforehand (from an old Answerman column I can't seem able to find) and it's not unusual for it to be a shot in the dark. The same is true of publishers. Usually there seems to be only a couple of volumes out in Japan before it gets licensed for English publication; cases where a considerable amount is available like High School DxD, Sword Art Online, or in this case Mushoku Tensei, seem to be on the less common side (obviously it does not apply in this particular case but it is applicable to licensing in general).

The issue more concerning is the editing decision to outright remove chunks of prose that are apparently necessary to comprehend what is happening.

I get what you're saying, and even setting aside that this was content from volume 1 in a series that started in 2014, I think the more pressing concern is the choice they made in the translation once they got to that part. That would have been the point where a call was made about how to approach it, and they apparently opted to go with something that changed the context pretty dramatically. Overall, I don't disagree with your point that sometimes it's impossible to know what will be in there until they get to it, but I don't think the answer to make it into something other than what the author intended when it does happen.

The alterations shouldn't have happened. Censorship for the sake of marketing never works.

TsukasaElkKite wrote:

The alterations shouldn't have happened. Censorship for the sake of marketing never works.

The funny thing is, going by the defenses of the anime that "well it wasn't in the LN," it kinda did work. A bunch of people that probably would've never read a story about the wacky antics of a pedophile instead got completely on board. Whether this means it sold more/less than unaltered is impossible to tell. That said, I find this kind of sleight of hand extremely suspect. The changes completely changed the tone of the series, which is honestly censoring it's message. If you've licensed something with such bad messaging that you need to change it in order to sell it... maybe you shouldn't have in the first place.

I have been enjoying Mushoku for the most part, but I'm not going to pretend I do t find the characters cases of being horny, awful people exhausting. That, being, said, I'd say I'd rather they just have left it in cause there's already a shitton of questionable actions that weren't removed there anyway, so no point pretending as if certain characters were better than they are.

I do feel more bad in regards to classroom of the elite though, even though I don't follow the series. Those are a LOT of cuts, jeez...

That's pretty bad and I didn't even know about the Classroom issues. Their generic corporates response doesn't even seem applicable to the issues at hand (though such a response is not unexpected). One clearly leaves out parts of the author's intent and the other excises what appears to be large amounts of text going beyond what is required for prose.

They've said what they're going to do about Classroom, but what about Mushoku? I hope they provide a follow up.

I feel bad for those who have purchased the physical books. Digital can be updated, but is Seven Seas going to replace those physical copies?

While I'm not going to stop purchasing their books (I haven't bought either of these, but I would stop if I had), I do think I'll have to be more careful about buying anything right away (and I've got a lot of their series in progress on the shelf).
If they keep doing this kind of thing then I'll have to reconsider purchasing any titles from them. I won't spend my money on something I can't trust hasn't been censored or edited beyond reason

While I immensely appreciate all the companies officially releasing translated LNs, the excessive nature of these edits is very worrying.
Makes me wonder if any of the stuff I'm reading has been heavily altered...
.....Does anyone know if the Re:Zero releases have content missing?

@Melicans
Publishers do research. Sure, they can't read every chapter around but they can read maybe a couple of the fan translated chapters to get a sense for what the story is. There's also the manga adaptation available to give a basic view of the story. They don't go into it blind. Like AksaraKishou said, they don't just say "hey let's bid shitloads of money on this title we know nothing about!". That's not how it works.
Part of the licensing job is to research. People get paid to do that. It's part of their job.

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