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Chicks on Anime


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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1822
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:57 am Reply with quote
About ten years ago I sent a letter to Protoculture Addicts and made a joke about a seeming downturn in H anime output. ("Where's Pink Pineapple when you need them? Heh.") Couple of issues after it was published someone responded rather strongly, thinking I was a girl.

My pet theory is that declining standards in music education mean more people think "Johann" is a girl's name. Then again an early online gender-detector tagged me as female based on a sample of my writing.

Anyway, off the top of my head I can't think of a female anime director, just character designers, directors of animation, or head writers. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I know someone who seriously considered that there was no such thing as shoujo manga before the 1970s, because manga aimed at girls were done by men (not women), citing the example of Western girls' fiction.
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championferret



Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 765
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:38 am Reply with quote
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I remember one person thought that I didn't like Chi's Sweet Home because it was a bishoujo show,

...wut?
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CyberTRex8u



Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 47
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:22 am Reply with quote
cool, i found this new column very interesting. you guys brought up some similar issues that i thought were put to rest a while ago, or i thought weren't as common, ignorant me right? I've always found different views on certain topics to be interesting and this conversation didn't disappoint. Very Interested in your guy's view on Harem Anime next week! Very Happy
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LordPrometheus





PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:27 am Reply with quote
penguintruth wrote:
Interesting. Will there also be a column with grunting, sweaty males, spitting and chewing cigars as they curse, burp, and discuss shonen and giant robots?


That made me lol. Laughing I was actually wondering the same thing, although you left out the part where the men complain that women don't treat them with respect. Fairness in journalism, right? Razz I find it funny how fairness always seems to be a one way street. Not that I have anything against an anime column done by four chicks, it's just that all this sexism they preach against went out during/after WWII. The example Casey gave of modern sexism was hilarious. If that's honestly offensive to you, then there really is no hope for America. Women are not oppressed in America or by anime stereotypes. The fact that you're writing this column is proof of that.

For the record, I did enjoy the column, but I caution you not to let it turn into a "poor oppressed women" screed.

Quote:
Well, why is that sexist? It's a steriotype that women cook. And? It's also a steriotype than men are perverts getting nosebleeds every fives seconds in half of all anime, and to me, that is more detrimental then simply a steriotype where you can cook.


Quoted for truth. It's about time somebody besides myself figured this out. Are there sexist anime series? Probably. Is it the overwhelming majority of shows? No.

There is a mammoth difference between a stereotype played for laughs and overt sexism. It only takes a little bit of common sense to tell the difference.


Last edited by LordPrometheus on Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:27 am Reply with quote
Lattyware wrote:
It's a steriotype that women cook.

Just FYI: you have just created another form of stereotype. Cool

fuuma_monou wrote:
Anyway, off the top of my head I can't think of a female anime director, just character designers, directors of animation, or head writers.

She is the first one popping up, and I have a feeling that KyoAni is trying to make her their next director, especially after Yutaka Yamamoto got fired.

championferret wrote:
Quote:
I remember one person thought that I didn't like Chi's Sweet Home because it was a bishoujo show,

...wut?

I had the same reaction when I saw that sentence. Rolling Eyes

LordPrometheus wrote:
For the record, I did enjoy the column, but I caution you not to let it turn into a "poor oppressed women" screed.

You know... in one particular area, American men are as oppressed as women in Africa southern than Sahara Desert. Mr. Green
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Kenotic



Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 167
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:37 am Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
But seriously, now anime has its own "The View". Yay!


Not really, I didn't feel like taking a drill to my forehead after a few minutes of this (or in anime-speak, a knife to my right temple ala Rika in Higurashi).

Seriously, this should be good - and I hope to hear more opinions on touchy subjects in the world of anime as it relates to gender issues. For all of the years I've heard that anime was "progressive" and free of "silly western" views of women's roles, it seems like those that champion competent, intelligent women aren't all that common.

One thing that was mentioned:
Quote:
Some studies have shown that even if an online user's name sounds female, the person will be treated differently.


Heck yes. I had an female-sounding username for years on another site and I was hit on, propositioned, and given numerous "you're a GUY?!??" responses.
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Who Is This Guy!?



Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 183
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:39 am Reply with quote
An anime version of The View? ... ... -10 Points.
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1822
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:59 am Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:

fuuma_monou wrote:
Anyway, off the top of my head I can't think of a female anime director, just character designers, directors of animation, or head writers.

She is the first one popping up, and I have a feeling that KyoAni is trying to make her their next director, especially after Yutaka Yamamoto got fired.


Still haven't gotten around to watching Gundam 0083, which is probably why I'm not familiar with Mitsuko Kase. Likewise with Lucky Star and Haruhi Suzumiya for Tomoe Aratani.
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Acinom



Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:00 am Reply with quote
LordPrometheus wrote:

Not that I have anything against an anime column done by four chicks, it's just that all this sexism they preach against went out during/after WWII.

Hardly. Granted there are some issues on sexism that are just beating a dead horse. Society has come a long way from what it was like half a century ago. However, that being said, it's a little presumptuous to claim that sexism is no longer an issue (it's not as prominant in the US but in other parts of the world it's still going strong).

It's never going to completely go away (unless human beings somehow d/evolve into asexual beings and start reproducing via budding).

Quote:

For the record, I did enjoy the column, but I caution you not to let it turn into a "poor oppressed women" screed.

In agreement, but I don't think the point of this new column is to publicize the oppression of women. Hopefully, the column will cover gender issues as a whole and not just focus on the female side of the spectrum.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:04 am Reply with quote
I am curious as to what they say on how women are treated in anime, but they have to remember, who mainly keeps this industry afloat? Lonely otaku men who spend all their money on the shows, games, figs, pillows, and other merchandise. Harem and moe are never going away.
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1822
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:08 am Reply with quote
Who Is This Guy!? wrote:
An anime version of The View? ... ... -10 Points.


More like To The Contrary, which is a much better show.
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Dunst



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 11
Location: Joensuu, Finland
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:08 am Reply with quote
OH NOES THE MEN ARE HITTING ME ON THE JOB. I think woman can be taken seriously in work even if the men are hitting them. It depends on what demographic the workplace belongs to. I think the only way to prevent flirting in this industry or some other industry is to establish own all-women producing company. And oh noes there might be lesbians there that still are hitting women!
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15366
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:21 am Reply with quote
Quote:
I'm currently in the middle of co-directing another short animation and have begun pre-production on a new film of my own. I also work full time at a production house in downtown LA, where I serve as an animation supervisor, character designer, and animator. I've also worked as a freelance illustrator and comic artist.


I didn't know it was possible to make a living in Downtown L.A. in a job which doesn't involve owning a sweatshop or selling overpriced condos. I'm impressed already.

Quote:
During the days, I'm actually trying to get my PhD in molecular biology, which is pretty clearly related to anime.


If you're into Black Jack, it might be related. Wink

Quote:
Well, I can't date this off the top of my head exactly, but I believe it was in the late 90s or early 00's that at one point, Tokyopop, or as they used to be called Mixx Entertainment, had a line of shoujo manga called Chix Comics. Chicks spelled “C-H-I-X.” A lot of people felt that for a comic like Sailor Moon or Peach Girl or Miracle Girls…first of all, these are all manga for 13 and under girls. To call them Chix Comics, which sounds like a soft porn or something like that, was totally inappropriate and also somewhat demeaning.


Maybe TP thought it was its audience doing a favor, because of that overused "Chicks rule" phrase?

Quote:
Well, first off, the American animation industry has definitely had a long history of overt sexism. The first example I can think of off the top of my head is the Disney studios in the 1940s. Women weren't allowed to animate at all, they were only allowed to paint.


So waddya think of that Frog Princess flick-I mean "The Princess and the Frog"? Or that recent "Disney princess" crap for that matter.

Quote:
Eiko Tanaka is the president and chief producer at Studio 4°C, where she has a great amount of power and influence in the projects that are produced there. She played a big creative role in Michael Arias' Tekkonkinkreet, for instance. She's one of the most powerful figures in the Japanese studio animation industry today.


I think the reason there are more prominent women in anime production than there are in animation is that specialization is emphasized more in Japan than the U.S. Over here, what's emphasized is being financially successful in something, not necessarily good in it. That's why sluts like Anna Nicole Smith and Paris Hilton and pretentious primadonnas like Sofia Coppola get more coverage than real talented actresses and industry people.

Quote:
What I mean by this is that when you go to conventions, for example, you'll see that some of the female industry folks are treated as women, in that they get hit on a lot. During my several years going to conventions, I've definitely been asked by male industry people if I'm ever going to dress up like a booth babe.


Sorry to hear that. I usually like the female panels, because they're more laid back than the male ones. In the latter panels, you got them racing through the Q+A, so the male GOH can quickly get to their bar, restaurant, or tourist spot. The female GOH's are just glad to be there, so they take their time answering. [The only time I noticed this trend being in reverse was with CLAMP.]

Quote:
I think that because manga is now being seen as a popular medium, with more than a 50% female audience, like with all books in the fiction category, that you are going to see a lot more women working in the industry, just because a female audience is really your base. It's often hard for people in the American superhero comics industry to hear that, but it's certainly true.


I'm guessing it's because they realize they can't make a living on crappy storylines with scantily clad women on the cover anymore. [*cough* Gen 13 *cough*] Even that Witchblade series had to be shojoized for it to sell more copies.

Quote:
There is a bit of pressure to do well, because you're not only representing yourself... you're also representing your gender, in a way. You know, during the weekdays, I actually do research in a biology lab, and I see that chip all the time with some of the female faculty. They're so wrapped up in carrying that "woman in science!" torch that they can be a bit tough to deal with.


I hope you're not pissed about Hillary losing enough to vote for the old white guy, though.

Quote:
But if you say something like, “I don't like this harem show,” I think a lot of people think, “Well, it's because you're a female. You're not the target audience.” Even if you can say you don't like it because it's poorly done. A lot of times, I find that when I'm reviewing something and I say, “This is blatantly sexist, people should not be having cooking shows to win over a man,” then people chastise me for not having a sense of humor, or for not “getting it.” It's like my opinion is expected to fit within a certain box.


I don't mind, as long as you don't go overboard like that H+C thing. That just sounded like the female equivalent of my worst rants, and I'm not a role model.

Quote:
It so happens that in my case, I really don't like cute stuff,


Does that mean you're into Berserk or Gantz? Laughing

Quote:
But whenever a woman makes those same statements, and they don't even need to be as strong as “This is sexist!,” even if you make an offhand comment about something having sexist undertones, then you are perceived as this feminazi, this super, ultra-hardcore feminist and it's kind of an unfair accusation.


Well, I consider you to be a feminazi, if you're the Geraldine Ferraro type, but I generally support women who take stands.

Quote:
It's hard for women to take a progressive stance without being stuck with the “Feminist” label, even though there are many women and men who would agree with their sentiments. I mean, I certainly don't think that women and men are one hundred percent equal in every way, but I don't think women should always be in the kitchen either.


I just like how the rom-com culture[I.E. Ally McBeal and Julia Roberts] co-opted feminism to suggest that being strong is having it all and still being dependent on men.

Quote:
I think there has to be something to be said for the fact that to step into that role, she had to dress like a man, but perhaps that's another discussion suited better for another day. But I do admire Utena, she is a strong character.


I thought it was trying to make fun of male roles, to be honest.
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Faceman



Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 300
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:32 am Reply with quote
I enjoyed the article overall, as it gave some insight to a woman's perspective on the industry. I look forward to hearing more regarding the anime industry, as well as the anime fandom.

As for the film festival comments, I think sometimes it's not that people are surprised that something good was made by a woman and not a man, but just that the fact that it was made by a woman, regardless of the quality. If they're surprised that a woman made something good, it almost implies they don't think that a woman would be able to at all. As opposed to just being surprised that a woman was involved in something you won't normally expect.

It might be kind of like going to a ballet dance lesson, or a Home Ec class. Pre-conceived notions would say it would be all women, so if you find a guy involved, you may be surprised. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the quality of their work or involvement, but just that it's statistically uncommon.

Just as a bit of a critique for the introduction next time. When you say:
Quote:
Our regular contributors will be Casey Brienza, Robin Sevakis, Sara Pocock, and myself.

In the next columns, since the introductions have all been done in this one, a short blurb with each name might be good, just so the readers know what each of you do. Also, although I figured Bamboo was writing it, when she just says "myself", you're not immediately sure, as the article says it was authored by all three of you. So I think it might be better for Bamboo to include her name in the introduction paragraph. Sorry to nit-pick, but it just stood out to me.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2633
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:38 am Reply with quote
Of course women getting hit on in the office or anime cons is sexist but what do you call it when men get hit on is that sexist too? And this does happen it is not limited to women. What is the difference between the female character with big boobs and the beautiful bishounen? It's all about the "looks" right? And I think this is a problem with society in general it is not limited to the male or female demographic.

Anyways as a female anime fan I find this column very interesting. When talking about manga/anime what always pleasantly surprised me was the number of female manga-ka who write shounen/seinen. I would be interested in seeing a discussion on this. And also maybe the reverse of men who write shoujo/josei (although I think this number is smaller).

I would also like to see more discussion on well written female anime characters. Props to mentioning Oscar though she is one of my favorite anime characters.
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