Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2008-08-15]
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SalarymanJoe
 Posts: 468 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA |
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Not to veer too far off of the under-achiever course you directed it towards, I think the real grain of truth is not only were movies like this on the typical sixteen year old's contraband list but also that at the time, when most people thought of cartoons, they didn't think they could contains scenes of graphic rape or entrails spilling onto the pavement. I know you mentioned it but it bears repeating how outside the mainstream at the time it seemed.
Agree 100%. In fact, there was a thread here on ANN in the last couple weeks that ended up in that direction. High school kids are still kids and immature and they're going to do this. You can either prevent it by not exposing yourself to it or by toughening up and learning to take the ridicule. One can go on about whether it's right or wrong but it doesn't negate reality and the reality is that perception matters no matter how much of an "individual" you are.
Why? Because we think cartoons in a language most people need subtitles for are neat? Because we can recite bash scripts verbally from memory? I'm not saying that because you can throw a ball well or know the hippest places to shop are necessarily as deserving of all the praise they get, but just because I was on the bottom of the food chain until I got to University (and, arguably, didn't climb that much higher for a couple years) doesn't mean that we need some topsy-turvey social order. For those of us who work hard and make something of ourselves (you know, by leaving the house), those years to focus on some required skill or knowledge are good for us to become responsible adults with skills society demands. Plus, all the teasing, taunting and occasional beatings I received were good for me to become a strong individual who can handle themselves in a variety of social settings. Okay, I'm putting the chum bucket in the bottom desk drawer. I'm done feeding the trolls... @Flake - Are they even trying anymore? I long for the days not too long ago of the Otakukin. Answerfans Amanda S. - The team mentality (I prefer community but that's not important) is something I miss but I think this demonstrates a growing pain of the fanbase as a whole. We're actually large enough that we can faction off and splinter means that the real diversity of the medium is getting through. It's no longer a bunch of sci-fi fans and artsy folks into robots and pretty drawings. I think the Internet has also greatly affected this in that its made it much easier to shut oneself off from the socialization that was once required to be a fan and compounding the interpersonal relationship problem.
I'd agree with this but I'll add a group that you seem to have neglected or forgotten: the people who take it all too seriously. Sure, if you're an aspiring member of the Industry or even a fan who follows industry news, there's a lot of serious conversation to be had. However, there are some people out there that take every conversation, every affront to their fandom, or every mention or portrayal of anime as a vicious life or death struggle that I wonder if these people need their heads checked. They seem to suffer delusions of grandeur. I like talking about anime and meeting people involved in the fanbase and all that but, c'mon, they're just Japanese cartoons.
This same conversation was had ten years ago - just replace Naruto with Dragonball Z. And ten years before that, replacing it with Robotech. When I was running an anime club, these were the fans I liked. We scheduled multi-genre programming to give people a taste of what was available outside of what was then airing on television (and even almost a decade ago, it seemed like there was a lot more than now). It was up to them whether they wanted to stay and watch. If they wound up just liking their one or two shows, I was fine with that. Whether they stayed or not. I don't mind these people really because I can relate. I've recently gotten into reading science fiction but I'll admit I'm picky about what I'll read. I could consider myself a fan of some of the genre types, even if I only like a few authors.
I'm in the same boat but more from the disdain of people in their late teens up through their twenties who do it. It was a subculture I could never get into. I do my best to avoid confrontations with it other than expounding my low opinion of it on message boards and the occasional physical conversation but what gets me the most riled up are impolite cosplayers. Yeah, there are a lot of impolite fans but I can shrug off a meeting with someone who loves their moe-blob shows and ridicules something like Gundam much more than I can some attention whore who needs to stop in the middle of a hallway for a photo-op while I'm trying to get to a panel or something else. I'm no where near as important as Zac since I am not a professional journalist but at the same time, I enjoy my pansy amateur cub reporting so I'd like a good seat for the events. Cosplayers who think the world revolves around their scantily clad body and the creepy fanboys who take pictures of them with complete disregard to others surrounding them just irritate me to no end. Kenneth Thornhill - Complaining about 'posers is so middle school.
They're Japanese cartoons. Did I miss something?
The list provided in the article actually shows the disconnect of just having a large fanbase that I was hinting at before. To be honest, I don't mind people liking different shows than me - it gives me something else to check out rather than my usual routine. Fans proselytizing that their series are the best and every other one sucks is more indicative of that fan who takes everything too seriously, which probably part of a personality disorder more than just being a jerk. You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see fans adopt a mantra about discussing their favorite series or making recommendations: YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY Repeat after me ....
The thing is, the Char will more likely be called Zechs by a non-Gundam fan; getting the Ped Comet and a Peacecraft confused is still a mortal sin in many Gundam circles. And I can't really imagine UC and AD fans getting into anything other than an alliance. I'm a UC fan who talks primarily with other UC fans and I've heard nothing but good things out of 00. It's a lot of the SEEDlings and Wingers that still catch the most hate (and, as a very opinionated UC fan, deservedly.) Gurren Lagann and GunBuster are two mecha series that any mecha fan should be able to get behind. |
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whoisfriend
Posts: 369 |
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Wow... um..... no. The Higurashi manga is far superior to the anime, of which only one arc from the original was done up to par with the visual novel, that being Onikakushi-hen, the first one. The rest were laden with poor animation, entire monologues and character motivation being cut, and many mystery-solving elements being cut out. The deaths are much more brutal and detailed in the anime (particularly spoiler[Rika's death in Meakashi-hen]. Yikes). If you only read one chapter of the manga, you have nothing to base this assumption off of. The Tatarigoroshi-hen manga in particular is very well done, especially given the plot gutted travesty that was the anime equivalent. |
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Panda Man
 Posts: 257 Location: North Carolina |
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I have to agree with Sydney Durkin, and Ryume. They basically described all the "fans" at my school. The first person I met at school with an interest in anime was likr the person Sydney described. I asked him what he liked, he said Naruto first, then basically went on to name the rest of the mainstream ones. Now, I watch these too, but, when I asked if he watched any others, such as, Azumanga Daioh, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni, Hell Girl, School Days, Ai Yori Aoshi, ETc. He stared at me blankly. I later learned that he thought anime was to expensive, so he only watched what was on Adult Swim, which, made me wonder how he missed Evangelion, which ran for about half the series and cut up alot of stuff.
For Ryume, I met someone that is a good friend of mine. But, he refuses to buy anime. Me and him both like Lucky Star, and when I told him I was getting Vol. 1 LE, he was like, "won't that lessen the japanese flavor?" My response was this, Do you plan on deleting it off your hard drive? Of course he said no, and told me he just planned on keeping the fansubs. It pissed me off enough that I try not to talk about anime in the usa. I am only 16, but I still have the ability to get plenty of anime. With the amount of box sets, it's amazing that they still complain. |
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infinitebeauty
Posts: 75 |
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Slightly off-topic, and not meaning to burst anyone's bubble, but many times those who 'spread their interests around and defer to social convention' do better than the 'otaku, computer nerds, etc' simply because they recognize the importance of social skills. The nerds may get better entry-level jobs, but the others work their way up higher. I'm not saying that all nerds lack social skills, but there does seem to be some sort of stigma against 'social conventions' in general nerd-dom. *Gets off soap box, braced for attack* Anyway, in regards to the accusations of people calling themselves 'anime fans' when they only watch one or two...I don't watch anime that often, but I read manga by the bucketload. But I call myself an anime fan rather than a manga/comics fan simply because people recognize that phrase more. Am I a poser? (I probably am. Whatever) And the thing I dislike most about anime fandom is the rampant elitism. I've been in many fandoms, and I think anime is probably the most elitist. You are new to it? Go away. You like Naruto? You're a poser and you don't know what anime really is. You like American cartoons or comics? What kind of an anime fan are you? Etc, etc. Why so serious? They're just cartoons. |
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braves
 Posts: 2309 Location: Puerto Rico (but living in Texas) |
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This is sad and true. I've heard so many comments over my time in the anime fandom (2 years) and it surprises me that so many egotistical and elitist fans are present (there are many on this very forum  ). By their logic, if I happen to like to Naruto or any other shonen title, it can't possibly be because I find it to be genuinely entertaining. No, it must be because I have the mental capabilities of a 5 year old and I don't appreciate the true art form that is teh animez. And all the comments of any given series being about "generic" and "clichéd" gets tiresome after a while because you come to realize that every type of story in entertainment as been done before, so it's kinda pointless to place those labels on it in the first place.
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DavidShallcross
 Posts: 1008 |
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Well, what else is there in "modern anime fandom" besides the fans? Although I suppose annoyance doesn't have to lead to hatred. For example, one could be annoyed that too many of the cuter anime fans are underage, without actually hating anyone. |
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Lanisatu
 Posts: 65 Location: Vaughan, Ontario, Canada |
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I must have missed that. I didn't see it in the post I quoted.
That is the biggest load of crap I've ever read. You can not necessarily "prevent" people from bullying you by keeping your interests secret. My experience was always that whenever I gave the slightest hint that I liked something that might be considered "different" -- it was automatically deemed "uncool" because it was associated with me. How on earth does wearing the odd anime T-shirt mean that you're "asking for it?" Maybe this is different for boys. But bullying from girls has a lot more to do with rumours and verbal abuse with the intent to make you feel like less of a person. It never mattered what interests I shared, or to what degree. Everything I wore, everything I liked, was a point of ridicule because people wanted to be not-so-nice-people. I know that there are people who are generally goofy and get picked on for that. I tried keeping things to myself, but I was still bullied. It's not black and white.
There are cases when you don't really have a choice. When I was a kid, I gave up on trying to be social with my peers at school because every time I tried, I was either asked to shut up or go away. I can socialize just fine, and I'm a generally friendly person. But I'm not going to make an extra effort when people don't care to hear my voice. I think that the stigma against social conventions is just frustration that there are people who will exclude you even if the only different interest you have is anime. Or for no apparent reason. Honestly, if you're ridiculed regardless of what you do, then why should you hide all of your interests at home? You might as well learn the importance of self-confidence. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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There should have been more anime, sure, but the anime better than the manga? I finally picked up the artbook at con & showed it to a co-worker along with the Finder, Junjyo, & Saiunkoku ones I also picked up & the co-worker was wowed by the Pet Shop book most. The story was a bit heavy on anti humans because we're horrid creatures destroying the world all the animals share, but it's an excellent read. As is the 2nd series. I know I've seen the term fanservice applied to mechs. It's come to mean any bone thrown to fans, not unlike the Batwing on the moon in Batman by Tim Burton. And no, anime isn't the only thing with fan service. All those weekly sitcoms where the character has to say their tag line is servicing the fans. Go Nagai wrote most of his stuff in the 70's, didn't he? Isn't he the posterboy for fan service? Everyone knows there's no sense fighting unless one removes all one's clothes And yeah, Ranma was fanservice. Like with everything the levels get notched up. What was unthinkable 20 yrs ago is about PG now as we move it all up a notch. As for anime fans getting along, do football fans? Don't baseball fans argue ad nauseum about their team being best? Tiger Woods is the best golfer ever-debate now. Michael Jordan was better in this season or that. Politics? Yeah. Even within the various parties we all have our opinions of how things should be done. Everyone has their opinion & will argue it. Some of us are passionate while others it's just something to do, but I can't think of any time I've stopped liking a person I know because they voiced an opinion that differed from mine. I might argue vehemently with anyone here, but I know everyone has the right to their own opinion & I assume everyone has the same understanding so we are all ok with all this bickering back & forth. As for geeks vs jocks-anyone actually worried about whether anything is cool or not is just sad. You like what you like for whatever reason you like it. Why pretend to like something because everyone else does? It's so stupid. If you think it's a geek vs jock thing, rent Heathers. In that one, they no sooner take out one ruling queen B only for her to be replaced by another, etc. There's always going to be someone who thinks they're higher on the pecking order than someone else. In Heathers it got down to kids who were picked on picking on others as they moved up the ranks. Don't animal packs do the same thing? You're only top wolf until another beats you up. Packs all have a social order. And the gas station managers wearing Metallica shirts--you expect people to change? Do you believe someone who listened to Metallica when they were 15 will discover Beethovan when they turn 40 & abandon heavy metal? Sorry. My experience is people gravitate to "their music" as they age. They can't understand all this "new stuff" & start listening to oldies stations devoted to the music of their teen years so they can be driving to work reminiscing where they were when they heard this or that song. It's one of my signs of getting old-being unable to adapt to new music. Yeah, you can like Metallica all you like, but when one changes that dial away from the station playing the new stuff of that genre because the new stuff is "all crap", you are officially old. This might also corrolate to tv & movies...maybe when one can't find any good among the stuff (tvs, movies, anime) coming out currently, one is officially over the hill. Start practicing "Hey you kids! Get off my lawn!" Yeah, there are classic anime out there everyone should see, but there's good stuff among the titles coming out now and we all don't have to agree on which is the best as long as we're all enjoying ourselves without hurting others. |
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infinitebeauty
Posts: 75 |
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There are cases when you don't really have a choice. When I was a kid, I gave up on trying to be social with my peers at school because every time I tried, I was either asked to shut up or go away. I can socialize just fine, and I'm a generally friendly person. But I'm not going to make an extra effort when people don't care to hear my voice. I think that the stigma against social conventions is just frustration that there are people who will exclude you even if the only different interest you have is anime. Or for no apparent reason. Honestly, if you're ridiculed regardless of what you do, then why should you hide all of your interests at home? You might as well learn the importance of self-confidence.[/quote] I'm sorry that your childhood was difficult. That really does sound quite awful. I mentioned the stigma because I just came back from an arts camp where my friends and I were teased (people made snide remarks about us, and a girl yelled at us to 'have fun being normal') because we take pride in our appearance, can hold conversations, and have diverse interests. We were socially awkward through not being socially awkward. So I may have generalized a bit out of frustration. If someone is ridiculed 'no matter what' then they should absolutely be proud and boost theyr self-confidence. It's an attractive quality, and those who have it generally find it easier to make friends. The people who feel that they are ridiculed 'no matter what' when in reality they are making absolutely no effort to fit in...I have less sympathy. |
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Teriyaki Terrier
 Posts: 5689 |
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I pretty much agree with all the people who answered Zac's question. Hearing people complain about how anime is too expensive and such is almost as annoying as the dub vs sub debate.
Back in the day I actually was a member of a anime club. However, most of the members acted rude, mean to new members and long time members and the female members only wanted to watch shows with typical shojo guys. In my first year, the seniors (who were mean to about everyone) brought in the sub version of Naruto. Back then I actually did enjoy Naruto, since the show had action and ninja's. Naruto was a interesting show, but after my first year, the seniors graduated. In a nut shell, the club then only sporadically showed decent anime, however most of the female members only wanted to watch shojo and nothing else. Like the rude people they were, they would criticize anyone who didn't like what they liked. Eventually in my third and final year, my club finally got some decent anime, but with only three actual members, only myself and one other person brought any actual anime. What I am trying to say is; I miss the days where a person could express his option without being criticized or have some force their own option down another person's values. Personally, I English dub much more than subtitles for a varitey of reasons. Subtitles aren't always easy to read and are especially difficult once a person becomes older. For the most part, I enjoy hearing the English dub because most of the actors have great voices. But just because I enjoy the English dub of shows like Bleach or other shows, doesn't give me the right to say the English dub is better. I have always thought anime was simply a enjoyable hobby, nothing to be taken very seriously like other fans. Hopefully, the new generation will eventually understand that. |
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Sethimothy
 Posts: 121 |
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Not dealing with the Question of the Week, but the article at hand, I've always wondered why people felt that anyone who likes Anime should somehow be united with other people who liked Anime, especially given the number of different genres within what I often erroneous yet consistently refer to as "the medium of Anime."
What I found annoying wasn't how people would bicker back and forth about what shows were better, because the community aspect of the fandom is ultimately what I tended to avoid, in favor of actually watching shows. But somewhere along the lines, people started backing television shows as if they were teams in the NFL, and I still don't know what the hell that's about. Making one a sport's fan doesn't mean you're going to have any real fellowship with other sports fans, and liking Anime does not mean the majority of other anime fans are gonna be your friends. I haven't heard "Fate/Stay in the kitchen" in some time. It still makes me chuckle. |
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Teriyaki Terrier
Posts: 5689 |
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After six years of being a anime fan, I still can't understand why some fans say a certain character is theirs or they are dating them. There is a fine line between admiration of the character and claiming that a person owns or even is dating a character.
I can understand a person thinking a character is neat or even humorous, but to claim that a character that the person didn't create is their's is quite strange. All I can say is, anime fandom has indeed changed since I started over six years ago. But hopefully, many of these fans who claim that a character is theirs and theirs only grow up and act like normal people some day. |
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Tenchi
 Posts: 4473 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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I knew it would be one of those shows I would probably like (considering I love Ichigo Mashimaro and also really like Minami-Ke and Lucky Star), but I hadn't gotten around to either watching the anime or reading the original manga of Azumanga Daioh until a couple of months ago, and, while I enjoy what is mostly the exact same story in both formats, I can easily give the edge to the anime version, since a lot of the jokes that fall flat in four panels on paper just seem a lot funnier when they're read aloud by actors and given proper comic timing. Also, it helps that the artwork in the anime is consistent, while the first couple of hundred pages of the manga looks like a badly-drawn doujinshi, even though it's the original source material!
Another example where I love both but prefer the anime is Urusei Yatsura. Mamoru Oshii elevates the source material to another level in many ways, like fleshing out the character of Megane, who was originally a very minor character in the Rumiko Takahashi manga, to being Ataru's other main comic foil besides Mendou, and by packing some additional dramatic punch into the stories dealing with the deeper truth about how Ataru really feels about Lum, like the episode "Pitter Patter Christmas Eve". Also, Sailor Moon. Everyone knows that, since the anime premiered just a month after the manga started running in Nakayoshi, Naoko Takeuchi gave the anime producers only a vague outline of how the story would proceed beyond the first couple of chapters of the manga. I find the way that the anime writers filled in the gaps in the main dramatic arc to be just a lot more coherent than the way the manga played out, and the filler episodes (which are 75% of the show without any roots in the manga) are still great fun to watch. |
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Cain Highwind
Posts: 313 |
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Well this was an interesting read this week. And I have to say I agree with a lot of the people over the modern "internet generation" of fans. I always chuckle to myself when someone like popular Gaming Musician Hyadain from Japan always gets comments like "sugoi desu" or "Hyadain-sama DAISUKE". I also happen to see comments on Nico Video, amongst all the Japanese comments I'll see "SUGEEEEEE" knowing it has to be from someone trying to fit in.
The other thing that bugs me about Anime fandom are those special anti-fans who like to trash people who "like" certain characters. Now I know you can go too far with liking a character and saying you're married to them and the like (which has been mentioned already). But I hate those rude elitists who have to sneer whenever someone says "Yeah I like Faye Valentine, she's one sexy babe" or "Man, I could really go for a guy like Ichigo, what a smexy hunk." and reply with "OMG you guys are pathetic, you like a DRAWING, get out more, I prefer REAL women/guys!" (although I tend to see this coming from more guys than girls) Talk about insecure. They say real art is suppose to evoke emotion, and Anime/Manga has that special quality about it which can draw out lust (as well as other emotions), so I just don't see a problem with that. I mean it's just like if someone cried over a scene in a certain Anime/Movie do people say "Geeze it's just a work of FICTION with ACTORS."? Anyway about this week's question. I don't think I read enough Manga to really "qualify" for answering it. Will there be a "Manga>Anime" question? Because I think the AzuDai manga is superior to the Anime in a ton of ways because I could probably get a relative newcomer to sit down and enjoy the Manga especially since it's a lot like our "For all ages" comic strips with its 4 Panel layout while the Anime has a sort of over the top sugary sweet vibe that may turn said newcomer off and make them feel like they're watching a show for the little ones. But if I had to choose one for Anime < Manga, I'd probably choose One Piece. Like someone said a lot of the Shonen action scenes are simply better to watch in motion. I simply don't understand those Harry Potter-ish fans who have to butt in with their "Read the Manga, Anime sucks, it's ALLLL about Oda's brilliance" creed. While the series, being a long running Shonen series, isn't the best LOOKING one out there, it has an impressive soundtrack and some amazing voice actors which helps to bring the series out in full glory. But again, I'm not a big pleasure reader at all, so I feel like I'm not quite "qualified" to answer. |
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2093 |
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One Piece is a mixed bag for me when it comes to anime vs. manga. Yes, the fights/humor work better animated, but Oda's backgrounds are often simply jaw-dropping, that the anime can only capture part of the brillaince (but hey, even half of Oda is still pure win). So I think both are kinda tied for me. But also the anime gave us movie 6, which I rank right up there with some of Oda's best arcs (movie 4 was pretty good as well, the rest not so much, but I think movie 10 is going to be great judging by the trailer and Oda's involvement). |
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