Forum - View topicChicks on Anime [2008-09-09]
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Twilightmaster
 Posts: 129 |
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I don't really know where I stand on the whole Moe issue. As a guy watching anime, I don't really feel a need to protect any of the girls that are 'moe', nor do I get the urge to jump into bed with them as the girls somewhat implied once or twice in the column (That premise is a bit scary in my opinion...)
I guess like most forms of anime I watch, I take the moe genre stuff as a way to escape the conventions of reality in a way. Some people use fantasy stories to let themeselves mentally escape to a world more 'fantastic' or exciting than our own, since in the real world everyone can say at one point or another life can be pretty dull on the occasion. The same can be said for any number of different genres, moe not to be excluded. Let me digress that I don't usually lean to the loli-based moe shows, as I kinda see loli anime/manga as a more accepted form of pedophilia, but moreso at the shows like clannad, or kanon (or the various other dating sim-to-show anime out there. The types of women in those shows can sometimes appeal to me as a form of 'woman' that I wouldn't normally be able to encounter in every day society. The same was basically said when the girls brought up BL entertainment, and what women sometimes try to find in the characters involved. In a way, it's just a way to let my imagination run off. |
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Takeyo
 Posts: 736 |
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Hmm. Do we share the same definition of yandere? For me, it's more of a cold shiver down the spine than a laugh. When I think yandere, I think of a couple of characters from the recent spoiler[Myself; Yourself] and spoiler[School Days] series, which were anything but funny. |
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Calver
Posts: 1 |
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Very interesting debate.
I'm somewhat surprised that N.H.K ni Youkoso wasn't brought up. The character Yamazaki theorizes a good deal about Moe and his correlations fall in line with several things that were said, while at the same time he, himself, crosses over that thin line between fetish and innocence. I admit that while I tend to stay away from the Moe genre, I have watched some and will admit to protective feelings. My only problem with the genre is that those feelings tends to be all there is; there isn't much else to think about or take away from the series. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Hang on though. Those games may only contain a few erotic images at the end but regardless, the ultimate goal and end result is to bang one of the characters. Even in the case where there is no erotic content, the focus is ultimately on pursuing a romantic relationship with one of the characters. So regardless of whether actual sex takes place, it is still a sexually based relationship. It's fair to say perhaps that people don't buy this stuff to serve as pornography, but it does essentially serve the same purpose, just to a less erotic degree. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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I think you're going to have to explain that to me, in detail. Hell, as one can see in Air, the male lead completely vanishes from the story for the last arc (which is called Air) of the game. How can there be such sexually based relationship when there is no male there? Sounds like you are trying to discredit visual novels. If so, you'll have to back up your statements with evidence/facts, otherwise it's just misinformed opinion. |
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Cloe
Moderator
 Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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Oh, that's my bad. Rednal's definition made me think of something along the lines of Dokuro-chan (who, I'm sure, has a neat little categorical name for whatever kawaii sub-set she fits into ;p). What a weird personality type. It might be fun to take a closer look at some of these more niche-y archetypes in a future column. The only yandere character I think I've come across is spoiler[Shion] from Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, but my interest is piqued. I think I'll have to take a look at some of the titles you mentioned. |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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I'm not quite sure I fully understand your example of yandere... If it's the opposite of tsundere, then you have a nice, cute girl who is actually tough, right? Although both your definition (and Wiki's) seem to suggest the pathway of cute --> deranged. So is this in the spoiler[Kaede] from Shuffle sense, in which she turns *psycho*? Or more in the vein of Nyu from Elfen Lied, or Henrietta from Gunslinger Girl, in which these cute girls are made to kill? Or Lumiere from Kiddy Grade? Those are two completely different personality types-- killer/tough girl vs. mentally unstable... I don't know that I'd ever feel a protective urge towards someone who's flat-out crazy, bu there's something endearing about cute girls who are crack shots. ;p The whole girls-with-guns genre is proof of that, I think. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Don't get all pissy. I'm not trying to "discredit visual novels." I'm just pointing out that it is flawed to claim as you did that the lack of explicitly erotic images means something's appeal is not sexual. If a game consists of the player navigating relationships with a variety of sexy girls with the purpose of eventually ending up with one of them, wouldn't you still say the appeal is sexual? Now if you want to argue that there are exceptions or even that most visual novels are not like this, that might be a valid argument. I'm not even necessarily saying otherwise. The point is that just saying that there is no explicit sex alone does not necessarily mean the appeal is not sexual. If you want to claim that you need to provide more. (By the way, yeah, that quote sounds confusing out of context. What I mean is that a romantic relationship is ultimately based on some manner of sexual attraction. That's what sets it apart from a friendship.) |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Yes, you're onto something there. The "girls with guns" sub-genre is an odd one. I mean, if you can turn an adolescent (or teenage) girl into a cyborg, surely you can do the same with a 90-kilogram male soldier, who would be far superior. And yet, how many times to we see a feisty, lithe, pretty young woman or girl as the protagonist? Doesn't make sense from a realism standpoint, but the creators know that the target audience (men) won't care. All they want is to see beautiful females (they're always beautiful, or at least pretty) kicking ass, shooting big guns with extreme skill, and acting in the dominant action role, traditionally reserved for men. Call it a sign of the times; that despite women having won big gains (or perhaps because of the gains), men are still objectifying women, just on the small screen rather than real life. So; whether you are a male who wants a female who won't threaten your masculinity (and who, by virtue of being needy and unrealistically feminine can actually enhance your masculinity), or would like a female who appears to be made out of one-half testosterone, one-half adrenaline, and all spunk and/or cool, you are still objectifying women, or women-figures (since they are just animations in the end). The only difference with previous generations of men is that your attitude is likely more progressive*, but the fundamental drivers (i.e. urges, like protecting those who are of need of help, or simple sexual attraction) have remained. Modern men and women are - biologically and chemically - almost entirely the same as our ancestors were at the beginning of the agricultural age, approximately 12,000 years ago. Back then, physical attractiveness, though subjective among various groups**, was a powerful instinct. It was our rule of thumb towards vetting potential partners; a healthy person was seen as being an excellent potential mate, since they were able to take care of the partner, and have a better probability to produce excellent offspring. 12,000 years is tiny in evolutionary terms, and we as a species are still largely the same today as we were back then. Which explains much of our sexual behaviour. Women (generally speaking), despite claiming otherwise, are always going to be attracted to big hunky men with square jaws. Men are always going to be eyeing up women, objectifying them, and being attracted to those women with big breasts and a big pelvis. Our society has changed and grown up, but our instinct to fetch a (good) mate is still ingrained in us. So how does it explain Moe? Well, I've spoken enough already, and I really don't have an easy answer to that one. I think it may have something to do with an instinctual reaction against how society has been progressing, but I have no clear answer on this one. * As in, either you want to look after (emotionally speaking) a female who is dependent on you for support (which you are only too happy to provide), or, you don't mind (and may even appreciate) women expressing their sexuality and confidence, and are happy seeing women in historically male dominated roles. While the latter is arguably more progressive than the former, I believe that (to an extent) Moe feelings are slightly progressive, in that the male makes the attempt to emotionally bond with the female In a lot of societies, men didn't even go that far, and many still treat women as slaves instead of little-sister types. ** Even today in parts of Africa, a "big" woman is considered attractive, while for men it is how lean (but not skinny) they are. This is the opposite to what western society values (skinny women and muscular men), and is obviously rooted in instinctual desires favoured by a biological necessity. Lean men can run faster and longer in the hunt for prey while eating less than a more muscular man. Big women have wider hips and larger pelvises - both important for child rearing - and can prove by all the accumulated body fat that they (and their breast-feeding infants) can survive without food (or with less food) for longer periods of time. My whole point is, while different groups have different standards of what makes a person "beautiful", they all are being governed by the same instincts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry for going off like that, but what better thread to do it in? |
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Rednal
Posts: 134 |
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@Sakechan: It's opposite in the sense that one starts rough and becomes nice, and the other starts nice and becomes insane. It's the "niceness" bit, really; Yandere characters are significantly more violent than tsundere in the tsun-tsun phase.
And yes, it is in the sense of the character whose name you blocked. It's the same example I used. Yandere are mentally unstable characters, often with a violent obsession over their love interest. This is different from simply fawning over him like in many harem series, mind you. Such characters are often willing to kill to keep others away from their object of obsession, and don't take rejection well. @Cloe: I heard Dokuro-chan mentioned. Definitely not Yandere. ^^ She's just plain old psycho. We love her anyway. Mirai Nikki, which has the most yandere character I've ever seen, is a good one. Other than that, yeah, Shuffle and School Days. Unlike tsundere, there really aren't many yandere characters around, though their fans are occasionally so vocal that you might think they were common. Expect characters like the Higurashi one you mentioned, and not just happy, fluffy stuff. They're arguably much more interesting, though. On the subject of Visual Novels, it... can vary a little. I like Visual Novels, and I have a number of the few actually brought to the R1 Region. Dragonia, near as I can tell, doesn't really objectify women. If anything, it's a "Choose Your Own Adventure" Visual Novel. Piece of Wonder, which is a really nice VN/RPG hybrid, DOES have the whole dating-sim aspect for the first half of the game, but the characters are all notably underage, and it's not particularly sexual. Though I rather liked the robot's ending; it was very good. Hourglass of Summer was VERY interesting, despite the ecchi bits being taken out; a character jumping back and forth in time, so you end up spoiler[going on a date with a girl before you ask her out]. Sex appeal... yeah, probably. It's essentially just a censored version of the game, but it's good nonetheless. Essentially, though, sex appeal is a selling point for most visual novels. Not all, by any means, but it's usually there. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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It doesn't really change anything. Yes, Sakura has a secret but neither it makes her less moe nor more moe and certainly it has nothing to do with her innocence. Last edited by Aylinn on Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Hmm, I think this is the point that we differ on. As I wholly believe that two people can have an intimate and romantic relationship with no sex. But I suppose that just comes down to a different point of view on certain values. |
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gynocrat_rex
 Posts: 57 Location: Texas |
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In before the fanboy butthurt...
Well said, but something bothers me about this article overall. The objects of MOE being so gender-specific [female characters]. I think someone mentioned the unfair assertion that 'moe' for male fans automatically means sex. This mindset here indicates that because 'women don't see anything sexual in moe characters', then why do men? That's silly - so men aren't capable of falling in love with cute? Only girls are allowed to see quirky innocence and fawn over it - but if a man does it...ZOMG he's a perv. LOL! Newsflash, there's 'moe' in fandoms where slashing occurs, it isn't mentioned here [or is it and I just missed it.]  It's why chibi characters are so prolific in BL, and who doujinshika love making 'boyhood' stories about established grown male characters.
I can tell you from my own experience reading Trigun, I developed a deep fondness for 'child' Knives. He was adorable, when not caught up in a psychotic moment. This 'pure love' I developed for his character and it's design was made stronger once the anime was released. Was some of it arousal? Maybe. Am I a pedophile? NO - we're talking about animation and ink. >.> MOE is a two-street, bit I find it curious that female fans who adore 'male' moe [shotakon/slash or just boys in mainstream manga] are allowed their 'sexual likes' of such characters-- but men are penalized for it. :/ |
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Furudanuki
 Posts: 1874 |
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While I agree with what you've said in general, in some circumstances using an adolescent/teenage girl rather than a 90-kilo male can make a lot of sense from a realism standpoint. Take some of the scenarios in Gunslinger Girls for example, where the girls are able to infiltrate the enemy position and get close to their target primarily because the opponents see them, think "just a harmless little girl", and dismiss them as a threat. If the male soldier tried to do the same thing he would be lit up by the first sentry or bodyguard he encountered because he is exactly the kind of threat they are expecting. He'd probably win the fight, but the real target would have an opportunity to escape. You can also see the same thing in Dirty Pair, where guards often are thinking "Whoa! Those girls are hot!" when they ought to be thinking "Whoa! Those girls have an entire arsenal stuffed in their battle bikinis!"  So while the original purpose might be to provide eye-candy, sometimes eye-candy is the right tool for the job.
Originally, the Natsuiro no Sunadokei (Hourglass of Summer) visual novel didn't have any "ecchi bits" in the first place. The initial release was for the PS2, and it was rated something along the lines of "Teen and Up". When the PS2 release proved to be a success, another version was released for the PC that had some ero-scenes inserted - and very poorly, by all accounts - into the original. |
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Rednal
Posts: 134 |
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Fortunately, the game's excellent even without dirty scenes. ^^ It's not a dating sim that relies on the ecchi bits to sell; it's a very interesting story without, especially because of the way it's done.
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