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Can you really say that it's just editing after seeing something like Pencilhead?

That shit was just plain art.

Chagen46 wrote:

Can you really say that it's just editing after seeing something like Pencilhead?

That shit was just plain art.

Yes, I quite like a lot of pencil animation, and whiteboard animation, and Lego stop motion animation.

Was it an Anime Music Video? Or was it a short animation in its own right? To me, it seemed more in the category of something like the silhouette Bad Apple animation than an AMV.

agila61 wrote:

Its a podcast interview. Of Brad DeMoss. How many weeks of research was he supposed to do for an interview on a weekly podcast?

Just a couple of hours. Check out the last couple years of AMV of the Year winners at AMV.org, maybe browse their forums for a bit. Enough to get the idea of where AMVs are today.

Ojamajo LimePie wrote:

agila61 wrote:

Its a podcast interview. Of Brad DeMoss. How many weeks of research was he supposed to do for an interview on a weekly podcast?

Just a couple of hours.

You're already talking a minimum of an hour longer than seems reasonable to demand, on top of the existing demands of putting the podcast out. After all, it is not an article giving a general introduction to the AMV scene, its a podcast interview of Brad DeMoss.

Quote:

Check out the last couple years of AMV of the Year winners at AMV.org, maybe browse their forums for a bit. Enough to get the idea of where AMVs are today.

But ... what would that have added to the interview of Brad DeMoss? For regular ANNcast listeners, that is?

(As opposed to those heavily into the AMV scene who only pop in because one of the people doing AMV's back in the days of tape decks happens to be the person being interviewed on the ANNcast.)

agila61 wrote:

Was it an Anime Music Video? Or was it a short animation in its own right? To me, it seemed more in the category of something like the silhouette Bad Apple animation than an AMV.

Oh boy, now we are delving into one of those topics that often become a 20+ page thread on the Org. Its like AMVs can't win, if they are too elaborate they now no longer count as AMVs due to some arbitrary concept of what AMVs should be. AMV just means "anime music video," so not sure why would adding some original animation would no longer qualify it as an anime music video. Its a music video, about anime. Thus an anime music video.

What about this? Sure, there isn't any original animation but there is plenty of custom made images. So would this also fall under the same umbrella of no longer being an anime music video? Putting aside the fact that this images are animated and technically also animation, just like every custom made image in an AMV.

v1cious wrote:

I'm not dismissing amv's, I even said there's some good ones, but can you honestly say that this amounts to more than just fancy editing? I mean I just don't see how this point can be disputed.

All you need to do is look up the video descriptions in the Org pages.
"A man was allowed to call his deed a feat because people believed that the sin of murder committed during the war might be called so. Was it really so? Was there such a principle for which God created the war and the death? And can a man be forgiven for his loyalty, love and repentance even if the man was the one who committed this sin?"

CRAAAAAWWLIIIIIIIING IN MY SKIIIIIIIINNN

If the main criticism of AMVs is that they tend to just convey an emotion that were already present in the anime, or are just fancy editing, there are plenty of emo AMVs set to linkin park that are an expression of the editor personal woes.

It always feel like when discussing the merits of AMVs, people are constantly moving the goalpost.

Talk to any serious AMV editor and they'll tell you that editing anime music videos is art.

Let me rephrase - talk to ANY serious editor and they'll tell you that EDITING is art. Editing movies, commercials, trailers, music videos, even reality tv for pete's sake - it takes an artistic eye to correctly time audio and video together in a clever and visually appealing way. It's not as simple as just cutting and pasting. (If you think it is, try it.) There are amvs out there that have taken creators months and even over a year's worth of time to complete. Why? Because they're challenging themselves to put forth the energy to make a unique piece of art to share with the world.

Is music art? Yes. Is animation art? Yes. Is creating your own mash up of one or both art? Yes. Is cosplay art? Yes. Acting? Yes. Painting? Yes. Whatever you delve into emotionally and leave pieces of your soul behind in is art.

There are more than enough AMV fans out there that understand and appreciate this, hence AMVs being one of the main events at most anime conventions.

If you don't have an appreciation for AMVs, then that's fine. We are not offended if they're not your cup of tea and won't try to force you to reform. However, when you insult our work with childish accusations, you are either confirming your own ignorance on the subject matter, or purposefully trying to provoke us into confrontation. Either way, you are highlighting your own immaturity.

Yes to Bill and Ted(at least the soundtrack), no to Doctor Who.

Noted.

Last edited by Tempest on Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

Speaking in Zac's defence: I've heard alot of criticism about this being "poor journalism," because Zac didn't go into this podcast armed with a ton of highly researched knowledge.

"Talk shows" (which is what podcasts are), have a long history in media, and it's relatively well accepted that the hosts do not need to be experts in any field when they bring people on to speak to. Nor do they need to do "a couple hours research." I've been a guest on many mainstream talkshows, and I never expect the hosts to know anything about anime other than "Cartoons from Japan." They ask me questions, I answer them. They state their opinions, I address their opinions. If they come in to the show and say "My kid watches anime, but I don't really get it. It seems pretty infantile to me," I don't get insulted. I just tell them why many people of all age-groups do enjoy anime.

There's nothing at all wrong with any of this, it's how talkshows are often done.

For the record, I do think it makes for a better show if the host has done "a couple hours research" (or has an assistant do it). But that's a bonus, not a requirement.

As for Zac, he has done more than "a couple hours research." He's watched hundreds of AMV's over the years, he's been to AMV screenings at cons, he's familiar with basic video editing, he's discussed AMVs with their creators many times prior to this, he's seen all the ultra-popular AMVs of the last couple years. No, he certainly isn't an expert, and compared to any devout AMV fan he's a complete novice, but quite honestly, he knows more about AMV's than our average reader, and that's more than enough for him to sit down and have a conversation with an old-school AMV creator.

On a completely different topic, I am sincerely sorry that many of you do not agree with Zac's opinion about AMV's. However as a talkshow /pod-cast host (this wasn't news journalism, the rules are different), he's more than free to express his opinion, even if it is critical, about an artform. But that's all it is, the opinion of one individual who happens to host a popular pod-cast.

To paraphrase Zac, I think some of you got entirely too butt-hurt over this, and I think some of you have way too hard of a time accepting that people like Zac are allowed to express opinions that are critical of the art forms you love. But that's only a small number of you, don't worry, I'm not judging the AMV community as a whole based on a few people (and I doubt Zac is either). Some of you did come and try to start reasonable conversations on the topic, I apologize that we may not have adequately responded to you, but the whiners were much louder than you, and they affected our temperament. I apologize for this and only this.

Christopher Macdonald
Publisher (Not editor in chief)
Anime News Network

Anime fans taking opinions to heart? That cannot possibly exist in this universe.

randomeditor wrote:

agila61 wrote:

Was it an Anime Music Video? Or was it a short animation in its own right? To me, it seemed more in the category of something like the silhouette Bad Apple animation than an AMV.

Oh boy, now we are delving into one of those topics that often become a 20+ page thread on the Org. Its like AMVs can't win, if they are too elaborate they now no longer count as AMVs due to some arbitrary concept of what AMVs should be.

My reaction is not about how elaborate it is, its about whether its an animation in its own right. A whiteboard animation might be a lot less elaborate than the Skittles AMV, but if it was drawn on the whiteboard and then redrawn and then redrawn, that's an animation in its own right.

Quote:

AMV just means "anime music video," so not sure why would adding some original animation would no longer qualify it as an anime music video. Its a music video, about anime. Thus an anime music video.

My reaction would be a music video, containing anime.

Quote:

What about this? Sure, there isn't any original animation but there is plenty of custom made images.

But it contains a lot of anime. Not drawings based on anime: it contains a lot of the anime itself.

I mean, I certainly don't want to detract from the discussion of "why the ANNcast ought to have been an introduction to AMV's meeting standards (1), (2) and (3)", but my gut reaction is that I'm sure if I stepped through the Skittles AMV, I could find most of the scenes that appeared in the video.

Zac wrote:

I'd have liked to do another show that is actually intended to be about the craft of making AMVs and the community behind it, but you'll have to forgive me for never wanting to touch the subject with a 10-foot pole ever again. Not worth it.

I don't blame you, and it's really sad because Vlad, myself, and one other contest coordinator were hoping to do one with you, and we'd been planning it long before this whole ordeal. Kinda messes up an announcement we wanted to make but... que sera.

I personally thought that this was a good podcast this week. It's too bad that certain AMV editors thought you were giving either them or their own personal favorite editors short shrift because they didn't get the chance to be interviewed.

Brad DeMoss is a fine person and editor, regardless of what other editors think of him. It's sad that a lot of other AMV editors took offense to this - as you saw, some editors think a lot higher about themselves than they really are. Editing sure takes a certain degree of talent, and what got many people upset were the previous comments made by Zac and Justin about how all AMV editors pirate their editing software and how seemingly easy it is to put together a good, contest-ready AMV. Granted, as an accomplished AMV editor myself, I was offended at first by those comparisons, but I do understand that some people just aren't into watching AMVs and just want to tear down anything that they don't know well enough. But at least you got some insight about the hobby from a relatively accomplished editor.

Please don't let the whiners get to you about the whole AMV issue. I hope you will consider having AMV contest coordinators like Troy Williams and Vlad Pohnert (and possibly Vic Boruta) for another discussion about AMVs and how they have evolved over time.

Three asides:

1- Why did you fall back on the reggae music to open the show? Couldn't find "Bucharest" to open the show up? Smile

2- As you well know, art definitely is subjective. I didn't care for "Magic Eye" myself even though it's been winning all the drama awards, and I thought "Pencilhead" was a very nice bit of original animation even though I didn't consider it an AMV.

3- The next step would be the development of more original animation, whether it be 2-d works like "Pencilhead" or 3-d works like the many MMD videos using 3-d models of anime characters that are very prevalent on NIco Nico Douga and YouTube.

I can't believe Zac declined the opportunity to title this ANNCast, "Breaking Brad"...

Gah, what a hornet's nest, you kids these days. Why back in my day when I was making amvs we used 2 vcr's wit flying erase heads and we liked it that way. Dang whipper snappers and yer adobe hut this and adobe car that.

xstylus wrote:

Zac wrote:

I'd have liked to do another show that is actually intended to be about the craft of making AMVs and the community behind it, but you'll have to forgive me for never wanting to touch the subject with a 10-foot pole ever again. Not worth it.

I don't blame you, and it's really sad because Vlad, myself, and one other contest coordinator were hoping to do one with you, and we'd been planning it long before this whole ordeal. Kinda messes up an announcement we wanted to make but... que sera.

Damn, that would have been an interesting ANNcast (though likely another forum discussion thread less like a normal ANNcast discussion thread and more like the discussions when some legal action takes down a popular bootleg media distribution site).

I wonder whether it could be done as part of an audience call-in show.

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