Forum - View topicNEWS: Mainstream Moe Raises Artist's Ire
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burzmali
Posts: 143 |
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Just keep in mind, as much as you love your loli, there's a fair chance it is illegal to create, own and distribute it per the PROTECT act of 2003.
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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To hikaru004, hooliganj, and Dargonxtc: Have any of you served as a soldier or an uniform policeman? I have. You guys think the situation on paper, while the real deal is very different.
Imagine this situation: You are an uniform policeman outside of a cordon sealed with yellow tapes. You were instructed that only senior detectives and forensics are allowed inside the perimeter, and anyone else -- yourself included -- is forbidden. Then, while trying to discourage a group of reporters taking photos, two of them suddenly break lose and penetrated the perimeter. What would you do? 1. Pursue them immediately and knock them down to the ground, then drag them out. 2. Radio your superiors at the crime scene: "Sir, two reporters have just passed through the perimeter, heading towards you. I couldn't stop or chase them because you told me that even I am not allowed to enter the cordon. Awaiting your order...hey, Sir, you're on TV! Say 'hi!'" A soldier or a policeman might be court marshalled if evidences have shown that he didn't try his best to complete his duty -- stop those intruders. A charge of "derelict of duty" means several years in jail. No kidding. Furthermore, did anyone of you three know the incident had I not mentioned it in my post? If the answer is negative, please 1) keep your mouths shut and 2) study the Chinese side of story (my mistake for not including this link in my previous post -- providing only the Japanese side of story), as well as some no-so-far-fetched conspiracy theory (by a Korean), before making further comments. |
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hooliganj
 Posts: 113 Location: Longhorn Central |
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We're not talking about policemen here, who have an equal obligation to protect the reporter's safety and preserve the peace. A soldier protecting a foreign outpost against invaders is under no other obligation. Indeed, having first told the incoming Chinese to stand down, the Japanese guards would be within their rights to shoot to kill. Your links do indeed provide much needed further information and perspective on the incident. As it is, it appears that the Chinese policemen had the permission of the Consulate Staff to enter the grounds and make the arrest. I am forced to wonder why a diplomatic outpost in China would not have a Chinese interpreter on hand pretty much 24/7. As far as conspiracy theories go, I seriously doubt that the Chinese and Japanese governments are conspiring on anything, much less to dissuade people from defecting from North Korea. I sympathize with the people trying to escape from that country, but I also understand that China and Japan are desperately trying to keep the region stable. Apparently there is a US consulate very nearby, so I do wonder how the incedent might have played out if the refugees had managed to duck into that doorway instead. Oh, and by the way,
this sentiment is not conducive to a healthy conversation. This is an interesting incident that highlights many of the diplomatic struggles between the East Asian powers, and perspectives other than your own, even if they have come by their information late, are allowed. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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That's not entirely true. Did you watch the series to its conclusion? What actually happens is the main character is afraid that the girl will be repulsed by his "otaku-ism" and tries to hide it/change in order to get her to like him. Due to a series of misadventures he realizes that you shouldn't be something you are not to impress others. Over the long haul, such a position is simply unsustainable for 99% of the populace. Could you give up something you love FOREVER in order to keep the affections of another? Could you truly love someone who doesn't at least acknowledge something you have such a deep affection for? I think the most poigniant scene IN "Densha Otoko" is when he invites her into his room after he has redecorated it with his retrieved possessions and confesses that he is an otaku to her. (I watched the series primarily because I had read online that that scene was in there) The series is about being yourself and finding a connection with another person despite your differences, it's not about the "triumph" of overcoming "otaku-ism". (there's a REASON the OP is a parody of the Gainax Daicon IV animation) In the end, it's basically a twist on the "Beauty & the Beast" fairy tale. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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There wasn't any Japanese guards, as far as I know. The American Institute in Taiwan (AIT), the de facto US Embassy in Taipei, has Taiwanese guards dressed in US-styled police uniform. I don't think they were US citizens or permanent residents (I could ask next week, though; I'll get my Californian driver's license verified there in order to get my local license issued without retaking the test).
Chinese said they were allowed first but denied later, feeling tricked and betrayed. Japanese said they didn't give out permissions in the first place. Both sides were pointing fingers, and I just couldn't understand why you three all believe what Japanese said. Yes, Chinese news were manipulated, but so were Japanese ones -- with more skills that making the manipulation less noticeable.
I welcome different opinions -- educated ones, not "hey that's trespassing and against international law LOL". |
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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I didn't realize you were going at it from the heat of the moment angle. I must have mis-read your post, because it didn't sound like you were, so sorry there. So yes from this angle I see your point. If I was guarding the building and something like this happened, I can see myself making bad decisions.
Yes, although admittly it was small American newspaper article, which was read a while ago, but I do remember reading it.
Wow, so the two side of the story are polor opposites, imagine that. I imagine what really happened is somewhere in the middle. Although the Chinese Government does have a nastly habit of censureing anything that makes them look bad. If the Japanese Consul did give permission like the Chinese say then my previous statements would not be true. But they do not agree on this, so we may never know the truth, as I said it is probbly somewhere in the middle.
I don't subscribe to crack pot theories, and I will not comment anyfurther as I don't see what this has to do with Otaku, moe, and that bitch lady who doesn't want dorky boys to dream. And dormcat, (I mean this in the nicest way)you need to lay off the coffee or tea or whatever, I know you have strong opinions on this, but sometimes you just come off as being a jerk, aruguing points by telling people to shut up is childish and petty. Two things I am sure you are not in real life. [Edit:]
[sarcasm]yeah we can all break the law now with no consequences, No biggie. Breaking the law what a silly argument. I guess we can break Teh Rules as well. International law, what a f***ing silly argument. China possibly be in the wrong, how silly, the law doesn't apply to communist regimes with the largest military in the world. How quant.[/sarcasm] Last edited by Dargonxtc on Mon May 15, 2006 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TAKAVAR
 Posts: 138 Location: Canada |
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I don't get it. Is she really proud to be a shut-in? some one who lacks the ability to connect to anyone, unless they have same hobby as theirs or there is someone who chases after them? WHAT part of that has anything to have pride in? yea, sure you should value your self.
I'm not a social person. but that is certenly not part of my self that i am proud of. People, get it in your heads! Some thing rediclous as being proud of a flaw shouldn't exist. As for Densha Otoko, I agree with the person who said that the main character left his life style. This movie mostly showed that if you are in same category as Densha Otoko, you might be able to change your self. you might get a better chance to have romace. |
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Help_me_Im_a_n00b
Posts: 34 |
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Lolicon is just a subset of moe. Equating moe=lolicon is like equating anime=hentai. (And it's not worth nitpicking that by the Japanese definition, 'anime' refers to all animations by all countries, etc, etc. I am referring here to the common definitions, and by these common definitions, moe does not fully equate to lolicon)
I think what she's trying to get at (by lumping meganekko and Densha Otoko in her arguments) is that the moe industry is digging itself and the otaku consumers into a rut that's getting deeper and harder to escape from. Just look at all the erogames on getchu and you'll see how insane it's become. Even if occasional gems like those from Key / TYPE-MOON / 07th Expansion come out you realize that Sturgeon's Law doesn't even apply...it's worse than that...instead of 90% is crap it's more like 99%, and I have a shaky feeling that a good percentage of these are rape / guro fetishes. The way the industry can help itself as well as help the Otaku improve is by slowly aspiring to higher standards, which usually are more mainstream. Like good storytelling. Stronger female characters. (Tsundere / Genki characters are a good first step...and looking at Haruhi and upcoming Tsuyokiss, I think there's still hope here) Next, hopefully these female characters will grow up beyond being in high school age. If that occurs, then there's hope for normalization into society. |
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gungirl_newyork
Posts: 1 |
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This is my first time posting here, but I'm a regular reader on a daily basis, so hear me out if you can.
I've read Ms. Sakamoto's comments and the fall-out within this forum. I've also watched the series of Densha Otoko. I think the main problem lies within the society of Otakus and their "refusal" to deal with reality. I think "shut-ins" are a major social problem as well. Although Moe may not be as explicit as Lolikon, but the beginning premises are the same: UNDERAGE GIRLS. That in itself is very disturbing to me. I've done some work within the manga/anime business in this country, plus I've been a panel speaker at various conventions. I often tell my audience to please remember different countries/local communities have different set of community standards that they abide by. Sure, Moe and Lolikon are works of fiction, but it certainly does not help when real life crimes are committed by predators who are obsessed with both genres. The fact that the Japanese government does not do enough to weed out these monsters certainly doesn't help either. Another factor that disturbs me is the age bracket of Moe/Lolikon fans tend to be men in their 30's and older. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Shota on this thread. Shota is equally bad as Lolikon and it is often read by older women. I've participated in a discussion at a con once. There were these women who were absolutely squealing about Shota. At that point, I just had to leave the room. Let's face it, this is a real social problem here. Adults (both men and women) who cannot even respond to each other, so they resort to underage children. I was once asked by an industry rep if I considered myself as an otaku. I told him that I've never considered myself as an otaku, shut-in, fan-girl, etc. He was kind of shocked. I have way too many other interests. I love going out and socializing. Life is too short for me to be an otaku or a shut-in. |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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To hikaru004, hooliganj, dormcat and Dargonxtc: How did you guys even get into a policeman argument when we're talking about a lady who is criticizing moe? And I don't think this lady even knows what's going on in parts of the world and her own country because she "shuts" herself in trying to be an "otaku".
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Kidder
 Posts: 188 Location: Bat country! >.< |
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I think they're still arguing about that incident where Chinese enforcement officers stormed into a Japanese Consulate in N.Korea and arrested 2 men who were seeking asylum in the consulate. Bit of a digression from the original topic no? |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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(Color added) Gimme a break.  Sorry for getting off topic. No more consulate issue then.
I agree with fighterholic on Sakamoto's attitute: being so active in front of cameras (it's quite evident that she tries to sell her book with her looks, something not welcomed by most manga-ka; just search her glamour pictures with Google), she couldn't be an otaku -- at least not one with her own definition. |
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Help_me_Im_a_n00b
Posts: 34 |
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yeah, what the heck, Sakamoto looks like someone from Shibuya, much less from Akihabara.
I like this. The message sucks, so shoot the messenger. |
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Swissman
Posts: 769 Location: Switzerland |
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I see no difference between "regular" cartoon porn and rorikon simply because people fantasize about having sex with fictional characters in both cases. It this fantasization leads to any kind of "sociopathic" behavior, that would be buying more of that fictional stuff. Now, the degree of the fictionalization varies greatly in rorikon manga: Some character depictions and stories are as realistic as, let's say, the smurfs (having gangbang with smurfette). The idea behind this is presenting (comedy) porn with cute characters which have extremely loose connections to our reality. They can't be some kind of mental substitute for real child porn in any way. On the other hand, there's no denial that some manga-ka draw in a rather realistic style and present stories which have many connections to our reality. That's where the law must decide whether it is a stylization and representation of real child porn or not, but that's just my opinion. On a side note: The difficult thing with many seinen manga lately is that they tend to present situations which can be seen as having closer connections to our reality (the plot isn't based in a fantasy world, young characters are clearly depicted as "normal" grade schoolers for example...) with more cartoonish designs and/or moe designs (which tempt to fictionalize the story). It's not easy to distinguish between cute but unrealistic/harmless stuff and realistically depicted/chances of substitution-stuff anymore. Iguess it's a choice publisher have chosen in order not to have problems with the law within the "save" boundaries the label seinen manga has created over the last fifteen years. |
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hikaru004
 Posts: 2306 |
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Sorry, have to post my replies too.
Heat of the moment approaches only get you in trouble when looked at in the cool light of the day.
No. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. The method for which one hears of a news event should not affect his/her opinion of said event.
You got to admit if one of those refugees was really a toddler, it doesn't look good for the Chinese side. Either way both sides probably made mistakes imo. A translator and a higher ranking official should have been there to ensure accuracy of the conversations, protocols were being followed and to prevent an incident. Yeah, this is way OT, but it was started in dormcat's post and it was very interesting. So back to the moe discussion! |
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