Forum - View topicREVIEW: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works Season 2 Blu-Ray
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2266 |
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The two are intertwined for me. The whole Archer vs. Shirou aspect was, I felt, so drawn out that it bogged down the pacing quite a bit, which affected how receptive I was to UBW's "late-game content", i.e., not very. My patience was already wearing thin with how sluggish the pacing was at that point, and the seeming non-resolution about how and why Shirou wouldn't become Archer was the last straw for me. It was a domino effect that severely undercut any enjoyment I might have gotten out of the arc's climax otherwise. EDIT: Regardless, I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. You obviously found this part of UBW to be profound and compelling; and even on rewatching it, I still found it to be lackluster and nigh nonsensical for reasons I've listed previously. But I still got the clarification I was looking for, so I'm cool with that. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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That is a legitimate criticism. Then you follow by saying that Archer/Shirou ended with non-resolution, except how would you know, you weren't "receptive". What is then there to discuss than say "please re-watch that portion, more carefully this time". Afterwards there's room for discussion. Your comments just make me think that you were expecting a different story. You thought that the main "task" was for Shirou to grow out of his self-sacrificial ways and not become Archer. To a certain degree the narrative set itself up as that. But lo-behold it turns out that it's actually about self-worth and how you deal with loss of innocence, where your direction is less important than the reason for going.
Unless you see the arguments made here as nigh non-sensical, you were wrong about that. |
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whiskeyii
Posts: 2266 |
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Boy, you sure get a kick out of saying my opinions are wrong, don'tcha? 
We've seen two arguments here: one is that Shirou doesn't emerge changed from his encounter with Archer, the other that he does, and it's showcased in Shirou's fight with Gil. And I do think Shirou needs to change on some fundamental level (like he supposedly did in the other two routes) in order to not end up as Archer. Plus, according to what other folks have said about the VN, UBW Shirou is supposed to end up with a different worldview than the one he started out with--idealism tempered with realism. Moreover, I don't think our interpretations are mutually exclusive. I'm of the opinion that Shirou letting go of his self-destructive altruism *is* him letting go of, i.e., losing, his innocence, and him becoming less self-sacrificing means he values his own self-worth more, preventing him from becoming Archer. I'd say our views complement each other, rather than oppose. That said, I still don't feel like UBW the anime got this point about Shirou growing up across very well. And this is why: We don't see Shirou change. He doesn't get a defining moment we can point to where he starts to realize that him living is important, or that Rin is right to berate him for doing reckless things. (Contrast this with Sayaka from Madoka, where you can pinpoint almost the exact second where she starts down her path to self-destruction: when she loses the guy she likes to another girl.) Heck, Archer's whole point is that Shirou's beliefs will turn him into Archer, and Shirou's reply is to believe even harder. And somehow this and having a girlfriend is enough to keep him from going off the deep end because...? Why? HOW? The show doesn't say. It's not interested in saying anything about that, because apparently we've just wrapped up one conflict so we can head on to the next. At the very least, I could buy anime!Shirou not becoming Archer if anime!Shirou ended up like how folks claim VN!Shirou did, because at least VN!Shirou allegedly changed his worldview from start to finish. But no, the most acknowledgement we get of anime!Shirou's growth is that he decides not to throw himself headlong into death for the sake of the greater good (though he does make mention of ripping off his own arm if need be, so mixed results there, I think). To sum up, I don't think either of us is wrong in what the show is *trying* to demonstrate, and it's probably true to the original VN UBW route. I just think the anime fell flat on its face when it came to actually showing us Shirou's growth and change, so all of its assertions that Shirou is totally not going to end up as Archer--nope, no chance of that--just rings very, very hollow for me. |
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Slashman
 Posts: 253 |
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IMO Shirou becomes Archer in every route except for Heaven's Feel. The Fate route sees him turn into the hateful/vengeful Archer that wants Shirou dead in UBW. The UBW route turns him into the Archer who takes the responsibility of being a Guardian very seriously when events begin to unfold in a certain way. Seriously enough to give a part of himself to make Shirou whole for what he has to do in HF.
UBW does not prevent Archer from coming to be, it simply makes a more capable Shirou and less bitter Archer. If you pretend that there are no other aspects/parts to the story, that seems like a smaller deal than it really is. |
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GhostStalkerSA
 Posts: 425 Location: NYC |
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I thought Nasu said in an interview that Shirou from each route other than HF has a chance of becoming Heroic Spirit EMIYA, aka Archer. The one from Fate has the highest chance, and the one from UBW has a minuscule chance, but a chance nonetheless. |
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whiskeyii
Posts: 2266 |
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Uh oh. I've had it quoted at me that Nasu said NONE of the routes led to Archer. That's...kind of why I was in such a huff about nothing declarative being stated about Shirou turning into Archer? ^^; I mean, every time the possibility of the other routes leading to Archer was brought up in the streaming reviews thread, it was shot down with what amounted to "Nope, not possible. Word of God said so." |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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No, I'm just sick of people using that word as a shield to cover lousy reasoning and lack of information. If you assert that something is nigh non-sensical it's a bit stronger statement than your average like/dislike. And in this case wrong, because there are loads of people who can make quite enough sense of UBW.
It's unimportant what the VN said. Ignore people who bring that in a talk about UBW anime. We can safely assert that if Shirou changes fundamentally he will not become Archer. The goal of the story is not for Shirou to change fundamentally. If it were, he would've. The goal of this story is for him to figure out his own thoughts about what he is trying to do. Under all the stubornness and single-mindedness he's a confused kid who made a decision to inherit an impossible goal early in his life and participating in the HGW brings all the confusion up front.
Shirou is not letting go of his self-destructing altruism. That is made abundantly clear. Instead he gets convinced that it is still worth it despite everything. His mind is clear, he knows where this leads, he gets that what he wants to do is impossible and being a hero of justice is even incompatible with saving everyone. You are not supposed to cheer him on. You're supposed to hope that it together with Rin at his side will be enough.
No, i think you are wrong in what the show is trying to demonstrate, which is why you also think that it fails.
What he said is that there is a chance, but it won't happen. |
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whiskeyii
Posts: 2266 |
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Wait, wait, wait, wait. Back up. Are you saying that, despite this being an adaptation of a route that exists in the original game, this UBW is totally separate from the game UBW? They're not intended to be companions to each other, or to fill in the blanks that the VN skipped over? That this is, for all intents and purposes, a standalone product that is not meant to rely on information from the VN at all? Because if that's how you see it...well, I can see why you and I so fundamentally misunderstood each other. I was under the (very fervent, very insistent) impression (from the streaming reviews thread posters who played the VN), that UBW the anime was meant to be viewed through the lens of UBW the game. Unfortunately, that also means that as someone who came in with zero context for what the Fate/Stay franchise was, this series came off even worse than before. If I remove all context from non-anime sources (including the assertion that none of the route!Shirous become Archer), then that means this show basically dooms Shirou to becoming Archer (because Rin states in the epilogue that she's going to join the Tower and Shirou's going to wander the world, which severely limits her influence on him), and the only thing keeping him going is the belief system that doomed him in the first place, only this time we just kind of hope he won't succumb to despair and...that's it? That's so unfulfilling! Not to mention that it places a lot of the responsibility on Rin's shoulders, which kind of undercuts the supposed growth that Shirou made, even if he did make that decision for himself. EDIT:
Are you saying that Nasu said there is a chance, and YOU are saying it won't happen, or that Nasu said there is a chance, and that Nasu also said that it won't happen? |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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I'm saying keep to the text. I do look at the anime through the lens of someone who has read the source material. They're essentially the same story, which gives me an advantage when it comes to interpreting the text, but if the anime doesn't convey something (at all instead of better/worse), you don't patch it up with the source.
Have you ignored/dismissed everything I said? Then at least rewatch the last shot of Shirou in the epilogue and compare it with Archer's flashback in 20. |
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whiskeyii
Posts: 2266 |
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He doesn't have white hair or look as dour. Is that what you meant? You're going to have to be more specific if you want to make your points clearly. Just telling me "It's in there, go find it" doesn't really help either of us. Though I would still assert that it doesn't seem to tell me anything about his potential future, though, and that the possibility of him becoming Archer still exists. Unless him not having white hair is a sign that the future has been changed? Not sure. As for keeping to the text, you say that UBW the anime and UBW the game are the same story, so...does Shirou not gain a different worldview in UBW the game? All the folks who said his ending was a middle-ground between blindly chasing his ideals (Fate) and spoiler[abandoning them altogether] (HF), that's just...what? Not true? Moreover, I *am* keeping to the text. What I wrote up there, about UBW the anime seemingly not having an answer for the whole Archer debacle? That's my reading of the text. You might seriously disagree with how I read it, but that's the conclusion I, as an anime-only newbie to the Fate franchise, came away with: that neither Shirou nor Rin came up with a conclusive way to keep him from becoming Archer, so they're just crossing their fingers and hoping for the best. And it doesn't help when Archer repeatedly states that Shirou is just doing what he did over again. Unless Shirou's belief in his "beautiful wish" is supposed to prevent that, but then again, Archer says in the epilogue that Shirou's "fate is set in stone"; I can only assume he's talking about the fate of becoming Archer again. EDIT: I'm writing this just to clear something up. You do realize that I agree with you, right? I totally agree that Shirou doesn't change fundamentally in this adaptation. Given what limited info I was able to gather on UBW's route, it seemed to me like UBW the anime and UBW the game were in blatant contradiction with one another, but then again, I haven't played the games, and this is all second-hand. However, as you agreed with me previously, if Shirou doesn't change fundamentally, he'll become Archer. So logically, if anime!Shirou doesn't change, he'll eventually become Archer again. That's what the part you quoted me was about. I wasn't dismissing you, I was agreeing with you while taking the idea that "Shirou didn't change" to its logical conclusion. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Yes. What Nasu said. There is a corresponding scene with Archer with small differences. I thought it was in 20, but I was wrong, I have to look it up. Apologies for that. You can still ponder why is the scene like this the last one in the anime immediately after Archer's clear assertion? Could be to say that future isn't actually set in stone. And you're still going at it as if the point of the story was to make sure that Shirou doesn't become Archer. He might, but he won't. There's enough clues to that and this is a bittersweet ending not a downer one. Let's go at it again. Clue 1: He actually knows how Archer ends. Clue 2: He also knows why - Archer, not having internalized the impossibility of his goal, accepts what turns out a devil's deal for him. Clue 3: Rin is ready to help Shirou. Clue 4: He has come in terms with himself being a fake/hypocrite/whatever. Clue 5: Instead of keeping on because he feels he has to, he does it because he wants to. Wasn't all of this in the anime?
Yes, a stubborn guy, isn't he.
No, it just doesn't concern you unless you want to blindly trust Type Loonies.
No, I said that if he does change fundamentally, he won't become Archer for sure. Do you see why I am so confrontational towards you? |
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Videogamep
 Posts: 564 Location: CA |
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What's the point of this? It's pretty obvious that neither of you are going to convince the other so why not just agree to disagree? Arguing like this serves no purpose except to turn this into another argumentative Fate thread™.
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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A beautiful wish. 
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Saffire
 Posts: 1256 Location: Iowa, USA |
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Videogamep
Posts: 564 Location: CA |
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ANN should do an editorial on why that always seems to happen. I generally like Type-Moon stuff, but it seems like every Fate discussion becomes this. |
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