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Fan service: Is it necessary?


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MrVince



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 67
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:43 pm Reply with quote
(comments deleted by author)

Last edited by MrVince on Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chaos42



Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 153
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:50 pm Reply with quote
Personaly fanservice has gotten a little out of control to where whole series are nothing but fanservice. That being said a little is nice every so often and its not all sex. Like gratuitious use of giant robots or realy big guns or the million other FS moments i think it just need to be better propotioned in regards to everything else
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abunai
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Joined: 05 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:23 pm Reply with quote
MrVince wrote:
This discussion of fan service has unfortunately focused on the sexual portion.

The reason it has done so is, if I may be allowed a conjecture, that the real objection against fanservice held by the anti-fanservice crowd is not that it is unnecessary, but that it is sexual. They certainly don't seem to have the same issues with the non-sexual fanservice, in fact they seem to have completely divorced those elements from their own usage of the word "fanservice"

They are being prudish. That's really all there is to it -- sexual uptightness.

I'm tempted to go all George-Carlin-y on them, but it's almost too easy.

- abunai
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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Location: Coon Rapids, MN
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:33 pm Reply with quote
I don't think that's it at all, but rather that the sexual fanservice tends to stick out like a soar thumb and doesn't really blend in as well as other types of fanservice might. It's done for one purpose and one purpose alone, and it sort of cheapens the series a bit.

I don't believe I'm being overly prudish. I don't mind Eureka's short skirt in a show like E7. I don't mind Rosettes more revealing outfit or near 5 seconds of independent jiggle in Chrono Crusade. To me, sexual fanservice is par for the course, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get out of hand at times. To be honest, I think it actually works against Gurren Lagann. Then there's Divergence Eve, which suffers greatly as a result of its overdone fanservice in my opinion. Then you get the obligatory beach/springs episodes which usually just waste time and distract the user from the story.

Are some people being prudes? Sure. I think it's a bit unfair to just assume people are bothered by fanservice in any way simply because they are prudes though and because they are uptight. Fanservice is part of anime, but like anything else it can become a detractor when overdone, and that's what most people are saying here. Could you imagine a show like Haibane Renmei if Rakka was walking around with DDD's or knockers the size of a walrus? You don't need to be a prude to find that it just doesn't always work, whether it's a common element in the medium or not.
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Fear Ghoul



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 65
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:34 am Reply with quote
Quote:
As even Fear Ghoul has said (and yeah, I don't think I needed to be told that BP is your favorite series given that name Wink )


It's good to see another Boogiepop Phantom fan out there.

Quote:
It's dumb in my opinion, to shoot down an entire series for the sole aspect that it has fanservice in it, when it may have other good qualities to it which you do like. Liking it less, yes, but dismissing it outright, no. Maybe that's the completist in me talking, though. Some people have different tastes I realize, but for me it usually takes more than one reason for me to drop something, usually like two or three.


You're taking what people such as myself have said and taking it to an extreme. No one ever said that they dropped a whole series just because of a little bit of fanservice (I even mentioned that Stand Alone Complex was one of my favourite anime). But the fanservice does detract from the experience somewhat, such that if I were to rate a series that had fanservice on ANN, even if it were perfect in every other regard, I would still peg it down because of the fanservice to just excellent.

Quote:
Fanservice in anime is one of those parts of japanese culture that makes anime interesting and different for me so I wont ever say that it is unnessary or ask for it to be toned down.


I disagree. You can find fanservice in many old school western cartoons such as He Man, so the fanservice is not for me what makes anime interesting. I became interested in anime when I was shown stuff like Hellsing, Ninja Scroll, Akira, and Ghost in the Shell, because these all have the kind of mature stories with adult content that you just don't find in western cartoons or films. I wasn't drawn in by panty-shot #18946789.

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I don't have the right in the first place.


If you're a paying customer, then of course you have the right.

Quote:
I think it's the cameo and homages that make things tough for anime. It alienates people from adopting some series as they rely heavily on "you had to be there" moments.


I would have thought the sexual and cosplay elements make it difficult to get into. To outsiders, it just looks really weird and gives them the impression that it's pornographic which turns them away.

Quote:
The reason it has done so is, if I may be allowed a conjecture, that the real objection against fanservice held by the anti-fanservice crowd is not that it is unnecessary, but that it is sexual. They certainly don't seem to have the same issues with the non-sexual fanservice, in fact they seem to have completely divorced those elements from their own usage of the word "fanservice"


Actually, both the pro and anti parties have used sexual fanservice as a reference tool in this discussion, but I at least have referenced violent fanservice in my previous posts as also being unnecessary. So you can think what you want, but you'd be wrong.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:09 am Reply with quote
Keonyn wrote:
Could you imagine a show like Haibane Renmei if Rakka was walking around with DDD's or knockers the size of a walrus? You don't need to be a prude to find that it just doesn't always work, whether it's a common element in the medium or not.


That remark reminded me of this thread. I think it is very relevant, and everyone who wishes to continue arguing here should read it. It surmised that fanservice, when taken too far, can prove to be a liability.

Note, I have nothing (much) against fanservice in and of itself. But when it is over-used in an otherwise "normal" show to the point of insulting the viewers, I draw the line. Fanservice should never carry a show, unless said show is a Hentai. Nor should it be so intrusive as to prevent those who don't much care for it from enjoying a (non-Hentai) show. At least, that's my opinion.
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Kruszer



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 7987
Location: Minnesota, USA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:16 am Reply with quote
Quote:
You're taking what people such as myself have said and taking it to an extreme. No one ever said that they dropped a whole series just because of a little bit of fanservice (I even mentioned that Stand Alone Complex was one of my favourite anime). But the fanservice does detract from the experience somewhat, such that if I were to rate a series that had fanservice on ANN, even if it were perfect in every other regard, I would still peg it down because of the fanservice to just excellent.


However, I've seen people who actually do drop series like that (and for even shallower reasons) and thus it's not so much an extreme and in case you didn't notice, the first line I wrote was that none of that was directed at anyone in particular and was just my own museings.
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Teriyaki Terrier



Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 5689
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:39 pm Reply with quote
In my option, fanservice should ONLY be allowed if the characters are eighteen or older. If they are older than 18, then fanservice is fine.

However, that should never mean that just because they are eighteen or older that the character needs to always be those those types of positions. Though this all depends on the type of show as well.

Obviouslly, fanservice shouldn't be, but unfortunely enough is in shonen series, as well as a wide variety of other show genes. But like I stated before, as long as the characters are older than eighteen, then fanserivce is fine.
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abunai
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Joined: 05 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:48 pm Reply with quote
Teriyaki Terrier wrote:
In my option, fanservice should ONLY be allowed if the characters are eighteen or older. If they are older than 18, then fanservice is fine.

However, that should never mean that just because they are eighteen or older that the character needs to always be those those types of positions. Though this all depends on the type of show as well.

Obviouslly, fanservice shouldn't be, but unfortunely enough is in shonen series, as well as a wide variety of other show genes. But like I stated before, as long as the characters are older than eighteen, then fanserivce is fine.

So now we're equating animated panty-flashing with pornography featuring living models? How old is "eighteen" for an animated character?

And what do you mean by "should be allowed"? Are you proposing some sort of censorship?

And it "all depends"? On what? Decided by whom?

Think before posting. I'm sure we have a forum rule that more or less implies that you're supposed to.

- abunai
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.
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fullmetal biologist



Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 61
Location: north carolina, usa
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:43 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
fanservice - term for the inclusion and/or overuse of certain story elements that aren't needed for the advancement of the story. Usually referring to sexual contents like panties, glimpses of nudity and so on, but can also be used for other elements, such as violence.
From the Tonakai Anime & Manga MiniDictionary

Thanks for this definition Mr. Vince, I thought I knew what fanservice was but I wasn't sure after reading the posts here. I guess by defintion fanservice is not necessary to the plot and panty flashes and jiggly breasts certainly aren't necessary to me. But overall it's doesn't bother me that much and anyway I try to avoid series that look like fanservice would actually become distracting. I was going to say Evangelion but I realized as the series went on that sexual tension and pressure between the characters was integral to the plot.
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Ikari1



Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 531
Location: London
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:16 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I disagree. You can find fanservice in many old school western cartoons such as He Man, so the fanservice is not for me what makes anime interesting. I became interested in anime when I was shown stuff like Hellsing, Ninja Scroll, Akira, and Ghost in the Shell, because these all have the kind of mature stories with adult content that you just don't find in western cartoons or films. I wasn't drawn in by panty-shot #18946789.


fanservice is a kind of adult related content and I by no means wanted to insinuate that I enjoy anime for its panty shots. My post below explains this. The second half of you post about adult themes is something i agree with but i will have to disagree with the commetn about western cartoons. Fanservice in the way in which most people on here view it ( sexual references involving the breast or panties), has never been as widespread as it is in anime....which makes anime different from western cartoons in ONE way of many.

I didn't get into anime because of panty shots. I will admit however at this point that i was attracted innitially by the way in which violence is used on screen and the way that it was in animated form. I hadnt really seen this before and so was intrugued by it. I started watching anime through a blunder. My first encounter was one where I was literally entralled by the way in which tradionally adult thmes and acts ( not including sex) were represented in this one clip i was shown. I stumbled upon the scene in Evangelion spoiler[where Rei ayanami sacifices herself to spare Shinji]. I stumbled upon it looking for a music video of something obscure. Like many of the people I now claim to dislike, I immediatly frowned upon seeing 'the silly japanese cartoons for big kids' .

I fortunatly made the desision to carry on watching the clip. The point is I came across this scene that unlike alot of western shows IMO, was actually quite emotional and this was before I was attached to the characters. The second time I stumbled upon it was with Studio ghibli after being reccomneded Porko Rosso, Nausica and Grave of the Fireflies. In the time between this however, I had found sailor moon and subsequently sourced the subbed episodes and watched up to ep 200 ( not including the 20 or so I could not source) within the space of 1 month. I then watched Akira; borrowed from my flatmate opposite me, and ghost in the shell. After these i went on to watch the entire ghibli series, in the course of a week. As you can see, along with a crippling back injury i sustained during rugby this is the reason why half of my film coursework did not get done and i was only spared failure due to my marks being so high in the bits i actually managed to hand in before i discovered my weakness for anime.. Anime for a while took over my life and not too mention my bank balance once i found the anime section in HMV. The first time i found it after watching Nausica, i spent over £150 or around $300 on both Ghost in the shell boxsets and other anime. I was hooked rather quickly. It was so different. It's not something that really can be compared to live action when I think about it now becasue it's uniquesness comes from it's being animated in the first place.
Cartoons/animation in western enviroments are mostly aimed at younger audiences. In the UK animation harldy ever targets audiences of above 15 years. This is my opinion bearing in mind, not fact and isnt backed up with credible evidence. You could take a look at the way in which people go on about the shooting of Bambi's mother in Bambi to see how cartoons are primarilly considered a childhood media in the west. Whislt not really fan service related, I will say that power puff girls when I saw it for the first time on cartoon network was the first real eye openers for something that was aimed at kids but included adult themse such as (slightly) graphic violence. I'm talking about the inclusion of blood in a cartoon.

I haven't seen He man in a very long time and so cannot comment on that example to be honest.

I think its probably an isolated example unless you can include other examples of western cartoons that have included fan service. Just to make this clear. I'm of the opinion that 90% of people's perceptions of the term fanservice are probably to do with semi sexual references or images shown with the purpose of titalation. It's what I think of when someone says fan service so this is the context in which I'm treating it at this time.

Back to my point .....anime has alot of things that would be considered unusual in main stream western entertainment. The panty shot and the way in which it is often represented on screen in anime is one such example. Im not simply refering to a shot of someones pants as this can be seen ( normally in context and normally through use of a long shot), in many western films. My point is, is that fanservice is something that I have come to recognise as an anime trait. I find it unusual because it is included in animation. I've not seen much animation in the west that utilises this. This is my view with graphic violence in shows such as Black lagoon; it's not usual in Western animation. Im guilty of this also but i think alot of things once animated, can be percieved in a whole new light and so it is dangerous to rely upon comaprison with live action too much. Anime is predominanly a Japanese medium and it differs greatly from animation in the west as well as normal live action. You seldom see a panty shot in the same way as it is often used in anime, used in a western animation or live action film. The amount of people not fully understanding this has been shown by the multitude of people coming on and posting comments that generally say fanservice is unnesserary because it is dirty.

I'm finding it hard to explain the way in which small things such as fan service make anime unique for me. Im not saying I 100% support the use of fanservice but I'm trying to say that in many areas, anime is a lot braver than western animation and even mainstream live action. This can be said in both it's content and its presentation with themes. Look at for example the common misunderstanding and uproar caused by cousins dating or having a relationship in anime. Its a typical western reaction because its different. Its an area usually avoided in the west. Again look at the use of 14 year olds as soldiers in evangelion. This normally would be a theme avoided in western entertainment. I say this with regards to the presentation of both 14 year olds as soldiers and the realistic way in which violence and adult themes such as mental breakdown and personal loss are presented along side said 14 year olds.

Again i get the feeliing this is a poor example to use but I'm saying that fanservice is one of those themes i think makes anime unique. It is unusual for example to have a show which dedidicates most of its creative talent and screen time to fanservice. I am of course talking about Ikkitousen. It's unusual because of the way in which it is presented and simply becasue it is animated rather than live action. I hope someone knows what i mean by this. I personally think toning down is one step away from sensorship and that is something that no amount of fanservice will ever make me support.

Fanservice isnt THAT bad is it. Abunai has raised an interesting point in that the issue that most people seem to have is the way in which fanservice can be sexual.

Quote:
They are being prudish. That's really all there is to it -- sexual uptightness.



On this one, I happen to agree with abunai. It's again why I am getting the arse. ( It's a british term)

It's very easy to walk in to a subject about something that may be partially about sexual images in anime, write a comment about it being dirty or something about it being underage, loli or what ever, and then leave. It takes very little to jump on these topics with this point of view and most of the time i see very little in the way of plausable and fair arguments made in support of these views.

Quote:
If you're a paying customer, then of course you have the right.

yes but i do not have the right to make a complaint that is based upon another countries popular culture. I think that would be selfish or arrogant on my part.
I apologise again for the long post and if you find it a bit excessesive.


Dean
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Wellness



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 175
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:41 pm Reply with quote
I freely admit that I'm a bit of a pervert but I agree sometimes series with constant fan service grate the nerves.

Especially the repeated use of certain overused cliches like really underage girls getting exposed or flashing panties. It has become a chore watching most beach/hot springs episodes when they appear.
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Rahxephon91



Joined: 08 Jun 2003
Posts: 1859
Location: Park Forest IL.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:06 am Reply with quote
Fanserivce can't hurt the show if its not the focus. Thats where anime has some problems.
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