Forum - View topicNEWS: Uncertain State of the Anime Industry Profiled
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LordRedhand
Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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While I agree with you that streaming needs to be a viable media and it would be nice if the industry was profitable enough so that directors/animators could make a decent wage and the series that they want to make. However that is the industry problem, something as fans we could prove that stream media works by watching it and supporting the shows we like. However the fansub side is something that we as fans can do something about. So while yes fansubs are not the only issue facing the industry, it is the one that we can directly do something about. |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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OK, so not a majority of those who will go and buy every single licensed anime/manga, after they had seen it in fansubs/scanslations. I'll admit that there are special cases, but that's a relatively niche group of fans out there. And quite frankly, I'm not one of them. Because whatever incentive I had in the beginning for collecting some anime series were killed off due to illegal fansubs, when illegal fansubs saturated the anime media market even before the anime industry could.
And if you don't like the R1 licensees, then you can go ahead and import R2 anime medias at twice the R1 anime media cost, while they contain half as many contents with zero localization. And good luck trying to make anime subculture popular with that method. |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2238 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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The great majority of late night anime actually is pay-to-play, i.e. the anime production companies have to PAY the TV station to air the show on TV, not the other way around. Furthermore the advertising revenue (if there is any) goes straight to the TV station, not the anime production group. And what is abundantly clear here is that people who equate "breaking copyright law" to "morally corrupt behavior" are not helping the industry survive. So... |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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So what, elitist? |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2238 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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I just don't see how you can call the 1000s of otaku in Japan who only buy ~5% of the shows they watch fans, while calling the 1000s of fansub watchers around the world who only buy ~5% of what they watch thieves and villians, when the only difference is a violation of international copyright law. I know that I personally don't watch fansubs anymore, but the only anime I've been buying this past year has been Macross F on Blu-ray, despite having watched 10-12 anime series on TV last year. So I guess that makes me a true fan, just because what I'm doing is completely legal? If the TV broadcasts are truly just advertisement for the merch/DVDs, then what company wouldn't want those advertisements aired to the largest possible audience? |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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The point is that fansubs don't take money away from pay-to-play media. That media has always had to earn it's revenue in other ways (DVD sales, etc.). Fansub is a distribution method that costs the industry nothing, so if anything this could be considered helpful to the industry, provided that the people watching it are actually buying DVDs. They don't have to pay to play fansubs.
The moral problem is people not buying DVDs or attempting to support what they like. The idea that copyright infringement = stealing is inane, particularly when it comes to pay to play media. Even if I were watching on TV if I really like what I'm seeing and don't support it I'm doing the wrong thing. I believe the same is true of those people who buy used, etc. If it's not supporting the industry it's not supporting what they value and it's useless money spent. As far as your "fact" posts where you reference losses in the industry, I want you to prove with real sales numbers that shows that are fansubbed perform worse than those which do not. Fansubs existed in the peak period of 2006. Why are they "suddenly" having effect years after they came about? Is your point that more people who were previously buying aren't now because of fansubs? Can you prove this with numbers or statistics? Can you prove there are no other contributing factors?
Oh and what's that you are doing? Not download them yourself because as soon as you touch them you must never actually buy the anime you watch? There is no magic that creates a loss when you copy illegally. It's only a loss if you choose not to buy, and that's no different whether you are watching it free on TV or free on internet streaming or by downloading a fansub. |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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The international copyright law granted the original creators the sole rights to do whatever they want with their intellectual properties, while at the same time requested the people within the jurisdiction to respect the copyright holders with their decisions on what to do with their properties. So technically when you committed copyright infringement on a copyrighted intellectual property, you're basically disrespecting the original creators' rights as individuals. And that's even before you've found guilty by your local authority. And when intellectual properties are being illegally released and distributed amass, and by doing so violate the original creators' rights. That's not advertising, that's just wrong.
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LordRedhand
Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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I would say not really, the cost involved with anime through fansubs is there, and that's just from basic economic theory, nothing is free. So the cost is coming from the fact that others are using it as a replacement for legal releases the world over, such that some distributors will look at a title and not see a way to make a profit from it. Therefore fansubs now are doing the opposite of which they intend, potentially preventing a series from coming into the market.
While yes they are doing something wrong, they are distributing something that they do not have a right to distribute is a form of theft. As to watching something on TV it does show the station that it is something to continue, a fansub however doesn't inspire a business to continue a series, like Case Closed, they make fansubs of it but it doesn't help it come out or release faster.
Well to start look at what Best Buy is doing for a start, if anime were selling well that wouldn't be happening. As to actual sales numbers, Zac has mentioned that MoHS "being okay, not a huge success as the fans clamoring and making demands for it were saying it would be.", you can also ask at Best Buy, FYE, Suncoast Videos for some of the sales numbers that your asking for. The reason why you don't see the sales numbers public is because that is business data, something that is used to make business decisions, surely you wouldn't want competitors to know how your doing sales wise or what your planning. So it's strange to ask for such an transparency that, really no other industry has. |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2238 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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However how do you define "The original creators'"? As the article states itself, the actual animators, directors, producers, and animation production companies do NOT own any of the copyright to the shows they create. Instead the copyrights are dolled out to the companies who fronted the cash for production, i.e. the sponsers. So the whole concept of "intellectual property", i.e. that you own something you create, is turned on its head in this situation, because the people who actually create the content give up their intellectual rights from the very beginning. The companies whose rights are being violated do not create anime, they simply fund it. |
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rg4619
Posts: 163 |
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While this is often correct, it does vary from show to show. In some cases, the animation studio (or even small groups of creative staff, who've formed their own company) is a member of the production committee, which means that it shares copyrights with partner sponsors. |
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DomFortress
Posts: 751 Location: Richmond BC, Canada |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2238 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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Sorry, but you are really just wrong about this. The rights, both intellectual and copyrights, for Macross F in Japan are controlled by Big West Macross F Production Committee MBS with the main one being the "Macross F Production Committee". This is, like most anime, a fake holding company for all the interests that fronted the money for production. Satellite does NOT have any intellectual property rights to Macross F, nor does its founder. Basically the music rights are held by Big West, the broadcast rights by MBS, and the rights to everything else, intellectual property rights, copyrights, DVD/Blu-ray distribution rights, are all controlled by the "Macross F Production Committee", which is exactly as I stated, a collection of sponsers. |
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jenthehen
Posts: 835 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio |
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Wow ... so many things to say.
Fansubs are A problem. Can't really argue with that. How do we solve this problem? The answer HAS to be going after the actual people who DO THE SUBBING!!! Seriously. It cannot be that hard to find out who these folks are. And while they are possibly poor 40 year olds living in their parents' basements, lawsuits would send a strong message, and maybe help to stop this problem. I mean, seriously - you can't realistically expect anime fans to stop taking what's easily available. Here is my metaphor: I really really really want a chocolate bar. So I go to the store to buy one. They either don't have any that I want or I think they are way too expensive. So I leave. Standing outside is someone handing me a chocolate bar that I want for free (or someone telling me where to go get one for free). What the hell am I gonna do? That's right. You know the answer. I'm certainly not going to stop and think "Hmmm ... no. I really want to support this store and the people who made the chocolate bar, so I'll wait weeks, months, or years until they have what I want or it is cheaper." Come on. Now, I am against fansubs ... I support licensed products and I spend money on anime, but this logic makes sense. Even I have been guilty of watching fansubs (and even of licensed shows at times). I know it's wrong, and I feel bad (so I buy more stuff! lol) ... but it's hard to resist when it's SO easy to find and get and it's FREE. And there are no consequences. They must go after the fansubbers themselves. If this stuff isn't available, people won't be watching it. And it WILL make some people actually go and spend money on anime to watch it. It just makes my blood boil when I see a funimation trailer on youtube and all the comments are "This looks awesome - I'm gonna go download it!!" Wut? I also think the excuse of "I want to try it before I buy it" is b.s. ... cold buying stuff is the best |
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LordRedhand
Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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I'm just going to post this again with the little debate you 2 are having, who can say if a portion of staff are part of the holding company that is Macross F Production Committee that the studio or creator doesn't have a stake in that company., |
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walw6pK4Alo
Posts: 9322 |
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I think comparing petty shoplifting to downloading intellectual property isn't a good comparison, even more so when it's a food product. Here's a big reason why people continue to download even with threats of lawsuit or internet being shut off: because you don't see immediate reaction against it. If I try to steal a DVD from a store, I have a high chance of getting caught. It might not mean prosecution, but the store might ban me. Downloading a movie means maybe someone's looking at IP addresses, but there's no feasible way to track-down and prosecute everyone. The more realistic solution they take is to bitch to the ISP to give up personal information, but the ISP obviously don't want to sell out a customer (unless they Comcast). Anime companies don't have the money to do lawsuit battles, so the most they can do is ask fansubbers to take down their files, which is probably the better route in the end to not produce backlash. Yes you can argue the people who download have no reason to complain since they were stealing in the first place, but that's not a real world thought.
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