Forum - View topicHow we alienate new fans
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VAF-SF7
Posts: 3 |
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I picked up the new issue of Newtype-USA a few days ago. The-right-to-left format featured in it is decidedly Japanese, very appropiate given the subject matter. But the question I have about this is , "Will this alienate future fans?"
It certainly can. A vast majority of new fans to the genre have been lured by sources such as Toonami, pay channels, and to a lesser extent, Sci Fi's old anime screenings. Admittedly these are not the shows in their pure forms that can be found on DVD or VHS at just about any mall in the US today. Publications such as Newtype-USA, Tokyopop's manga offerings and subtitle only anime make for an intimidating expirence for new fans outside the genre. This intimidation is going to be a major problem in the future. It's a sign of a marginalization of an entire industry by a vocal minority. This marginalization can only hurt American sales as a result. The loud voice of the hard core fan can hurt sales. There is already evidence of this. ADV Video asked fans at a convention several years ago wether Cross Cultural Cat Girl Nuku Nuku should be available dubbed or subtitled only. The resounding reply was that it should be subtitled only. The result was poor sales of the title and a decision a few years later to dub the anime so as to increase sales. Fans of subtitles can seem typically vocal on the internet and often seem to be the majority. This is not true. Using empirical evidence from the days of VHS we can see that this is false. Commerce is based on the law of supply and demand. During the analog days, dubs were by far cheaper than the subtitled alternative. While dubs were easier to find, subs were harder to get and more expensive in a retail setting. What we can gather from this is that more people want an english dubbed anime. This made the VHS pool more profitable to the industry as a whole. The law of supply and demand tells us here that less people want subs, which made them more costly to produce since the supply has to be smaller. (These days everyone can be satisfied through a single product, DVD. This can offer several different tracks which should have made the sub v. dub arguement moot, but the battle rages on through many newgroups and forums throughout the internet.) Another topic that would most likely alienate more potential fans from the genre is content. It never ceases to amaze me how Sailor Moon is popluar among young men. Were these the guys who liked Pound Puppies, My Little Pony and Strawberry Shortcake? This is where the corporations who import into the US seem to forget who they are importing for. The problem is that these young, anime starved men lap up this stuff because they are starved for anything Japanese. Even in Japan, this would seem strange indeed. The second genre that doesn't seem to fit, but is popluar, is the high school themed shows. It's glarringly obvious that Japanese and American high schools are different from a single viewing of such shows. How can anyone relate to such these in America? Due to the poplarity in Japan, I can see how it plays well there. But here? This is just more stuff that alienates new and causal fans. All is not lost though for the high school genre. Shows like Great Teacher Onizuka bridge the gaps of culture through traditional western comedy and alternative perspective. (In this case teachers) The meat and potatoes of anime in America is Sci Fi. Here anime will never disappoint. The Sci fi aspect is quite possibly the biggest lure to prospective American fans. Deeply written shows, such as Martian Succesor Nadesico, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, and Super Dimenional Fortress Maross are a big draw because of their deep Sci Fi or comical SF themes. This is something that cannot be typically found on American television outside of Star Trek: TNG. As far as Sci Fi goes, Americans may have originated it, but the Japanese have perfected it. This in of itself can only bring more fans to anime. The Japanese ideas on western horror can also be a draw. Vampire Hunter D, Vampire Princess Whatever Her Name Was, Hellsing, and the upcoming Witch Hunter Robin prove or will prove to be fan favorites even outside of anime circles. So what's the problem? Marginalization is the problem. In Japan, anime is varied. Everything that is animated is anime there. As opposed to the narrow-minded idea of anime here in the United States. What we Americans get is mostly determined by corporations. Corporations who are afraid to take risks on new, different anime shows that might appeal to a vastly different audience, like preteen girls, like Chance Pop Session, which HAS been licsenced comes to mind or even a long running series like Doramon. Unfortunatly, most of what is made for Japan, barring the hardcore fanboy, is made for that taste, and will stay a foriegn taste to us as westerners. This is also the major obsticle to anime today. For anime to grow, it is going to have the break the pot that is the Pacific Rim and become international. Studios outside of that part of the world are going to have to take up the cause. The definition of anime that hardcore American fans have held to will have to change from "Strictly animation from Japan." to "Animation done in an Japanese style." Because the hardcore fan's definition itself is narrow-minded and marginalized, we should take that logic and apply it to something outside of that loop. Using that same logic, we can determine that The Rolling Stones or The Beatles are not Rock music, because they are British and not of American origin, the home of rock music. It's a slippery slope arguement to say that anime is strictly Japanese. The silly part is that the most vehement adherants to this arguement will make the claim that they are educated when debate falacies are taught in basic philosophy courses. Regardless, anime fandom can be hypocritical. We as anime fans on the whole are going to have to consider new fans. We're going to have to consider localizing imported goods, like Newtype-USA if it's put in a left-to-right format and not nitpick because it's not in the same exact format as the Japanese cousin. We're going to have to consider alot. Essentually, compromise for the newbies and nurture them. [/i] |
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jmays
ANN Associate Editor
 Posts: 1390 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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What's your opinion of a show like "Firefly" or "La Femme Nikita?" Unlike anime, the presentation does not "alienate" new fans, but they still don't seem to succeed beyond a niche market.
I believe anime's inability to attract the mass markets in North America extends far beyond its presentation format. Sometimes it's the depth of the content, other times the mere fact that anime is a little different from most US television. But (imo) making Newtype USA read left-to-right and licensing (and dubbing) everying under the sun won't achieve the success for which your "compromise" aims. |
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Kagato
 Posts: 156 |
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Most of the time when they do release it to a younger audience
they have no idea where it comes from,though most people who are anime fans became so by watching series that were sci-fi,though that usually enters them into more genres through non blatant parts of a series,such as the romance in Macross.Thugh this is failing to new audiences,which mostly like Dragon Ball Z,though it has no hidden subgenres.Is that a word? Which,therefore to not alienate new fans,they might have less expensive videos and DVDs so that it will let them afford it.Also it would help if there were more multi-genre anime that were on TV. |
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VAF-SF7
Posts: 3 |
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Making Newtype left to right would help it sell better in the us. I really didn't like the right to left format, which was one of my more minor complaints about it. But as to "Firefly", and "La Femme Nikita" yes they were nitch market shows. Firefly is currently getting the shaft by Fox but wasn't being watched in the first place according to Neilsen polls, this is mostly due to a poor timeslot. It's probably going to end up like 'Genesis Climber Mospeada', fondly remembered but nothing else. La Femme died off like any other show after a decent run.
Presentation is only part of the problem, but a large part of it. Too many times have I seen people post on boards that others that they know consider anime to be porno because of the hentai sub-genre. This would also indicate a major problem with public relations, which is also a part of presentation. You don't see people saying, "You watch soap operas? How can you sit and watch soft-core porn all day?" I see the depth of the content of alot of anime as a major virtue. Something that can be appreciated. Most television in the US could be simply titled "Dumbing it down" or "More of the Same" or how about "Everybody loves Crap". It's a good thing that anime is mostly serialised or at least has a continuity and different from regular US TV. It helps sell DVDs. I still love Ranma, even though it's in the high school sub-genre that I feel would be hard for newbies to get into. It's also an alternative, which is always a good thing to have around. The main problem I see with anime right now is that its seeming to become stale. Hardcore fans are a minority, but have the loudest voice and therefore the loudest say. But what about those Toonami and Adult Swim viewers? Are the (my gawd do I hate this term) 'otaku' going to turn them off to it when they come to a forum discussion? Shouldn't a new hobby be a little less intimidating to the newbie? One point I should stress is that we really should be moderate in our extolations on boards. I know of another board where a member has a signature that reads 'make subs not war.' Personally I hate subs, but I see that whole debate as silly. Should we really get in heated debates that nearly end up in fisticuffs over a coke vs. pepsi arguement. Cooler heads would say no. As a community, we anime fans have to nuture the newbies. The evidence points to quite a bit of them liking their anime in their native language. But from what I've seen on quite a few boards, that seems to be the stance that is belittled. True, the Japanese have a larger more talented pool of voice actors, but we are quickly catching up. |
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Kagato
Posts: 156 |
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Since I am the only hardcore anime fan at my school and many other people just watch Toonami and I try to give thewm help,
they just don't listen to me because they try to be as narrow minded as they can be and become obsessed with only one show,which really annoys me because they don't even care about plot development as long as they know who the strongest character is! I am lonely. |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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For the most part, no. The right-to-left format is an "ooh, ahh! look, it's neat and wierd!" sort of feature. Any true hardcore fan already imports the Japanese newtype anyway, and can read Japanese, so they're obviously not catering to their tastes. Instead, the fans who "demand" this right-to-left format are playing right into the hands of neo-orientalism. It's "exotic" and "unusual" to read things in reverse, and thus it must be good. ... that's no different than travel packages marketing the "mysteries of the orient". It's not a bad thing... but it IS something that people should be aware of, and it should not poison their minds into thinking that because it's Right-to-Left (or Left-to-Right) that it's any better (or worse) than the original Japanese magazine.
Most of the industry stopped listening to hardcore fans years ago. They're loud, annoying, and typically have no business sense. They'll do whatever's best for the market. If it pleases hardcore fans, then so much the better..
Prior to DVDs entry to the market, VHS dubs outsold VHS subs by 3-4:1. Now it's impossible to tell who, exactly, watches subs and who watches dubs, except by asking, and hoping they tell the truth. (hmm...)
Even in Japan, Sailor Moon was popular amongst men. The fact that it was popular with GIRLS is a bit more suprising.
Again, not really. It's just the desire for things that are "different".. but not so different that they are unfamiliar. That's why we borrowed that dubious badge of honor, the word "otaku". That's why we changed what it means to refer specifically to anime fans. That's why Newtype is left-to-right, and might have some Japanese characters... but don't worry, it's still mostly English, so it only makes you FEEL as if you're reading something exotic.
Because everyone can relate to SOMETHING from those sorts of shows, even if the entire show is set in a foreign land, with different rules. The fact that we don't wear bloomers to gym, or have school uniforms, or that we don't take the train to school isn't important. Instead, what's important is the relationships, be they for friendship or love. GTO, Kare Kano, and AzuDai are really all very similar in that aspect. There's something that everyone can relate to in some way, even if the gym classes look different. ;)
Animatrix. Totally Spies. More will come, it's just a matter of time. At least the Animatrix has Japanese animators working on it.
It doesn't need to be anime to be good. Unfortunately, most hardcore fans refuse to see the artistic merit of Disney, Warner Brothers, or other studios. One can strictly define anime as being Japanese animation without needing to exclude all other forms of animation... .. it's just a matter of actually doing so. A good portion of hardcore fans, and quite a few 'newbie' fans refuse to do that. |
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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You know, I can see where you're going with this, VAF-SF7. I don't think that right-to-left manga and magazines is too much of a problem. Here's why;
Just recently, I introduced a female friend of mine to manga. I was reading MARS (go ahead, laugh it up. It's heavy shoujo and it's one of my favorites) and she spotted me. She walked over and asked "why are you reading that book backwards?". I explained it to her, and showed her the artwork and the flow of the story. The whole "bad boy biker and innocent artist girl" romance thing caught her eye, and she asked to borrow it so that she could read it. Now she's planning on buying her own copies, and wants to know what else there is like it. I'm thinking about saying Fushigi Yuugi (bit of a stretch), but I'm not 100% sure. As far as nurturing the newbies is concerned, it's a Catch-22. On one hand, you've got people honestly interested in anime and looking for information. On the other hand, you've got people who just want the next beat-em-up plotless actionfest. The problem: they're fans of the same shows (mostly). An Adult Swim fan who likes Cowboy Bebop can be someone who thought that the music was fantastic and was moved by Spike's devotion to Julia. They want to see something as tragically romantic as Cowboy Bebop, and as beautiful to look at. (I'd point to Ayashi no Ceres for this crowd). But there's a larger number who were wondering what the hell the blonde chick was for and were asking for less talking, more gunplay. There's only so many times you can say "watch Trigun, Outlaw Star, and Hellsing" before you become jaded with the mindless violence set. Two very different fans, bred from the same airing of one stellar anime. You're right in saying newbies need to be nurtured, but there's a difference between nuturing and dumbing-down a product. Look at the studios that have recently taken the most "fanboy" flak: Bandai, and Tokyopop. They've all changed top drawer products because they decided that the series in question (Love Hina and Initial D) wouldn't catch with the masses unless they changed around some things to make them seem less "foreign" and more "relevant". Anime is a great tool for preaching cultural understanding, deeper thought, and exercising freedom of creativity. When you start compromising those facets, then anime loses its charm. A lot of the diehard otaku I know, including myself, pride themselves on being individuals with their own ideas. (cliche, laughable, and odd pride that it may be) When they, and I, see Dragonball Z t-shirts hanging in mall shops next to WWE and "I See Dumb People" t-shirts, it makes us wince because that t-shirt isn't aimed at someone who's into expressing their own ideas, that t-shirt is for folks jumping on the bandwagon. |
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ownerizer
Posts: 136 |
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I grew up on GI Joe and Ronin Warriors when it used to come on early public television EARLY EARLY Saturday morning. I got lucky though. A friend of mine rented Ghost in the Shell, and then went headfirst, getting away from the little mainstream anime (DBZ) that there was, and into the "real" stuff with substance. He exposed me to it at an early age (11 yrs old) and I got hooked. But it wasn't until I saw Gunsmith Cats did I find the REAL reason why I watched anime (not just for the boobies, c'mon I was 11). Since then I've always gotten away from the boobies and more and more drawn into the high powered action series that is classified as a good anime in my book when: "SHIT BLOW UP AND PEOPLE DIE!" I've developed a strange violence and "girls with guns" fetish due to this, and tend to shy away from swords and chop 'em up series. I guess what I'm trying to say here is: ....On the other hand, you've got people who just want the next beat-em-up plotless actionfest... I LOVE THE ACTIONFEST! Nothin' wrong with that. I don't have cable television or broadband internet, so I don't watch Toonami and don't plan on getting cable anytime soon. It's all good. Sorry, didn't mean to explain my life story there. |
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FallenAngelFish
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First of all, this is like the best thread I have ever seen in a forum. Everyone has made their arguement so well and no one is being rude. I like this.
I completely agree with this. I just thought I'd let you know.
If Newtype USA is going to alienate new fans it won't necessarily be because of the format, as much as the content. After all it has articles on shows that haven't even finished airing in Japan yet, and have not been licensed for American release (which raises the question about what companies think about digisubs anyway, but that's another topic). I think Newtype is unique because it seems to be aimed at the fan who is not just into anime for entertainments sake, but also knows something about the culture. It is after all mostly articles translated from the Japanese version. Newbies might like distinctly american publications instead. It's true though, newbies have it tough. It's sad that there isn't a really good source for introdicing people to the medium, like an 'introduction to anime" book or something, most of the ones I've read are really only useful to people who have been fans for awhile or are studying Japanese pop culture (maybe some day i'll get around to working on one, Lord knows I've spent enough time studying the subject). I think everyone just needs a good anime mentor or something. Luckily I had my sister who, if not for her, I would hear the word "pikachu" and think it was just some sneeze gone horribly wrong or something. |
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Tenchi
 Posts: 4471 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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Hey, I'm a 28 year old man and I adore Sailor Moon! And I was introduced to it a year before it was on television here in Canada, when I was in an anime club and watching stuff more "appropriate" for people my age... though I was one of the minority who liked it, I admit. Come to think of it, I did happen to watch My Little Pony and Friends, but only from a "I hate this show... let's watch it and make fun of it!" perspective... Yes, that was the reason.
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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Speaking of logical fallacies, you rely on two major ones in your post.
This an appeal to ignorance, I believe. Anime's popularity in America (and internationally) cannot and will not continue to grow forever. In Japan it is a leading industry, but virtually everywhere else it is a niche market. And it is only one niche market among many. It does and will always have to compete with other less-familiar types of productions for the attention of the masses. (Britcoms anyone?) Anime is growing like wildfire now, but it can't always be that way. If it was, it would have to eventually get to the point where everyone in the world watches it. And how realistic is that? Apply that sentiment retroactively, and it makes perfect sense.
And your statement about the definition of anime is either equivocation or amphiboly. By all appearances, you use "anime" to refer to animated works originating from Japan throughout your post except for a sentence or two right in this area. You refer to series such as Cowboy Bebop, Kare Kano, Chance Pop Session, and Evangelion - all Japanese productions. You don't seem to be making any effort to defend titles like The Last Unicorn, Swat Kats, or foreign works from other nations that mimic the stylized and complex nature that some people insist are the defining characteristics of the medium. The nature of your arguement does not conform to the definition you have offered us. I think what you call "marginalization" is really just the result of an idea being transferred from one culture to another. Just as all people do not enjoy chocolate, all cultures and countries will not embrace anime and assimilate it into their entertainment habits. They have their own culture's entertainment options to consider. |
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hakootoko
Posts: 74 |
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>Publications such as Newtype-USA, Tokyopop's manga offerings and subtitle only anime make for an intimidating expirence for new fans outside the genre.
>This intimidation is going to be a major problem in the future. It's a sign of a marginalization of an entire industry by a vocal minority. This marginalization can only hurt American sales as a result. Intimidating is probably too strong a word. Comics take some time to get used to as it is, developing a feel for which frame to read next (yes, I didn't read them as a kid, and had to get used to it later). I don't think the addition of having to read right-to-left poses more of an acclimation problem. Reversing pages itself creates minor problems of acclimation, because a character becomes left-handed, for example. As to subtitle-only anime, there really isn't much of it. Almost all anime is released bilingual these days, and as you said elsewhere sub vs dub is a dead issue. >Fans of subtitles can seem typically vocal on the internet and often seem to be the majority. This is not true. Using empirical evidence from the days of VHS we can see that this is false. Commerce is based on the law of supply and demand. During the analog days, dubs were by far cheaper than the subtitled alternative. [...] Sorry for cutting off the paragraph, but it is quite long. Dubs being cheaper than subs back in the VHS days was a self-fulfulling prophesy stemming from the anime importers believing that dubs would sell more. They priced dubs lower and marketed the dubbed tapes to mass market stores, cause the dub to sell higher by the margins were are used to hearing about. I agree that the dub would outsell the sub, all factors being equal (like retail shelf space and pricing). The same is true in Japanese rental stores, where they rent dubbed vhs and subbed vhs of every major US movie. But the reported figures of 9:1 are skewed by marketing. >The second genre that doesn't seem to fit, but is popluar, is the high school themed shows. It's glarringly obvious that Japanese and American high schools are different from a single viewing of such shows. How can anyone relate to such these in America? Due to the poplarity in Japan, I can see how it plays well there. But here? This is just more stuff that alienates new and causal fans. I try to watch what foreign movies I have access to, not just anime. It presents you with an inside view of another culture and you get to realize things that are taken for granted there and never explained in books. Yeah, the whole foreign movie market in the US does very poorly, too. So your point about Japanese HS dramas probably not selling well may have some validity. The numbers will tell... >Marginalization is the problem. In Japan, anime is varied. Everything that is animated is anime there. As opposed to the narrow-minded idea of anime here in the United States. It seems from your later comments that you're just referring to the usage of the word anime in each country...? If the words anime and animation meant the same thing in the US, there would be no need to have both of them 
People in the US used the Japanese word anime to refer to animation from Japan. This type of usage is common in English. Koi lovers don't refer to them as goldfish, either. >This is also the major obsticle to anime today. For anime to grow, it is going to have the break the pot that is the Pacific Rim and become international. Studios outside of that part of the world are going to have to take up the cause. The definition of anime that hardcore American fans have held to will have to change from "Strictly animation from Japan." to "Animation done in an Japanese style." You'll see this happening, despite the vocal opinions of people in a certain thread here. There are already American fans who say they draw manga. Animation, being a bigger budget item than comics, will take longer to adopt this (since the pros will have to start calling their work anime). But it will happen, and people here will complain bitterly about it. >We as anime fans on the whole are going to have to consider new fans. We're going to have to consider localizing imported goods, like Newtype-USA if it's put in a left-to-right format and not nitpick because it's not in the same exact format as the Japanese cousin. We're going to have to consider alot. Essentually, compromise for the newbies and nurture them. [/i][/quote] Though I agree with some of your points, I don't want my anime localized. I want a foreign view through it. I don't see why Newtype US is right to left; that strikes me as rather silly. As for considering new fans, I nurture them off dubs through techniques such as 'how they lied o vision' where you turn on the dub and english subs at the same time to see how the dub was rewritten. The intentional mistranslations in the dub script often have more of an effect converting people to sub watchers than any notion of purity. Not that I do it because I want everyone in the world to watch anime subtitled, but I don't want to hear the dub voices, and I have to be in earshot while my friends are watching my anime
>I see the depth of the content of alot of anime as a major virtue. Something that can be appreciated. Most television in the US could be simply titled "Dumbing it down" or "More of the Same" or how about "Everybody loves Crap". It's a good thing that anime is mostly serialised or at least has a continuity and different from regular US TV. It helps sell DVDs. I still love Ranma, even though it's in the high school sub-genre that I feel would be hard for newbies to get into. It's also an alternative, which is always a good thing to have around. Ranma is actually responsible for a lot of new anime fans. People who hadn't seen anime before liked Ranma. But it's more about fighting than school. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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"Most television in the US could be simply titled "Dumbing it down" or "More of the Same" or how about "Everybody loves Crap"."
This is an attitude that bothers me. While yes, the bulk of American television is somewhat lacking in the quality department, There are several standout shows (watch HBO original programming; I don't have to tell you that The Sopranos and Curb Your Enthusiasm are quality shows. The same can be said of Comedy Central's The Daily Show, Fox's The Simpsons and 24... the list goes on.) that drip quality from every frame. Anime is very, very similar to this; the bulk of what's released is total insipid garbage. Anime fans have a tendency to worship anything with a particular aesthetic, and it shows when you have anime fans getting really excited about something like Beyblade or Yu-gi-oh, claiming they have 'great stories' and whatnot. Both of those shows, and indeed a lot of anime, are simply half hour toy commercials. Anime fans will put extra meaning or depth into something because they worship the aesthetic. There's a handful of shows every season that are excellent; this season we have Ghost in the Shell, Naruto, and a few others. Aside from this, it's mostly crap meant to sell toys and pander to age-specific audiences and fetishes. Let's keep things in perspective; no country in the world is capable of releasing high-quality entertainment consistantly, not even Japan. -Zac |
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shinji th3 l0s3
 Posts: 16 Location: Wisconsin, USA |
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i tend not to read frickin 20 paragraph essays on a forum.
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Ataru
 Posts: 2306 Location: Missouri (Strikeman) |
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 Too many big posts. *L* While I was in Korea for a year, I went off post about the same time every month to buy a new Newtype and Megami. I can't read a word of Japanese, but the pictures and posters are worth the 15 dollars for both.
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