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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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I think if a show presents itself as schlocky fan service, then that is exactly what we should expect to see in that show! As I've said before, I've watched fan service shows. I have enjoyed them, even though fan service is not my favorite thing in anime. However, sometimes a fan service show is very well written or does a great job with making its story or characters fun and entertaining. That's fine. The problem is when we get a show which is put to us as a "serious, dark show with serious characters and plot" and then right in the middle of a part that is supposed to help develop the characters, there is some random extended boob grab/squeeze/squeeze/squeeze which serves no purpose and is totally contrived. It makes you roll your eyes and be like "What the hell?" If this had been Sekirei, OK FINE. If this had been Strike Witches, YES. Hell if this had even been Trigun it probably would have been OK, given how goofy and lecherous Vash is. However, in my opinion, it didn't work here. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
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The only thing sexist in episode 9 of SAO is the duel and I don't believe for a second that we have all the info on it yet. so I am not going to pass judgement on that. episode 8 and 5 had sexist moments but those where the animation committees addition I would guess. SAO is not sexist it's adaptation is. also people they just explained the special skill for one minute give it some time. also the battle is not at all sexist first off asuna leads the charge to save everyone, then she is more helpful then klein in actually holding off the monster. how is that sexist, she is more useful then a guy, and yes the main character will save the day get over it.
Second she says it's only been a few seconds but I highly doubt that since in that time everyone has formed a ordered half circle and is leaving her alone with him (even his friend klein). she is supposed to be human not a perfect robot. it's ok for her to freak out. even if she is wish fulfillment, that does not mean that she is a sexist character. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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As someone who read the first novel out of mild curiosity (and it being such a quick read), I wouldn't go that far. I personally don't think it's sexist by intent. As Bamboo said a bit ago it's about about this tween fantasy where a Gary Stu kills everything. Since the author made Kirito so powerful, by effect, there isn't much Asuna can do. There isn't much any other character can do, regardless of their gender. It's always going to be Kirito doing everything because he is the Chosen One. Regardless of its intent though, there are definitely issues in the novel itself that would raise perhaps even more of a raucous than there has been regarding the treatment of its female characters. Last edited by Megiddo on Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18212 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Have you said that explicitly? No. However, it's been implicit in your comments. I've read nearly every word you've written in this thread, and you have, virtually without fail, jumped on every single comment or explanation that tried to assert that something either wasn't sexist at all or wasn't as sexist as you were interpreting it. You have been ruthlessly diligent in asserting that every comment that doesn't acknowledge the series as a sexist atrocity is wrong. You're giving no room for compromise on your points or understanding of other viewpoints, which is essentially the same as saying that you have no tolerance for other opinions. You're certainly welcome to defend your viewpoint, but you seem unwilling to acknowledge that others might see some of this differently for legitimate reasons (and by that I mean "other than being sexist pigs"). Look, many people (including me) have acknowledged that the boob grab thing was inappropriate for the series. You don't need to blow that all out of proportion to get your point across (and you are doing that - really, you're sorely mistaken if you think that even comes close to being one of the longest "inadvertent" boob grabs ever). It is, unfortunately, a pandering to otaku that don't need to be there. Asuna smacking Kirito back for it - and him going flying - is a joke, one that's long been commonplace in anime. It wasn't meant to literally show her power level, and no, it didn't belong there any more than the boob grab did. So don't try to blow that out of proportion, either. Unfortunately I have to go back to work, so that's all the time I have for now to address your points. In closing, not everyone is in agreement about how sexist the rest of the content is. You're the one refusing to acknowledge that any other viewpoint that yours could be sound. EDIT: Removed some extraneous text that I forgot to delete on the first posting. Last edited by Key on Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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I think one way to look at the Asuna-Kirito dynamic is to examine the Trinity-Neo dynamic from The Matrix: even after Neo became The One, Trinity still did dangerous stuff -- stuff that mattered, too. I think if Asuna was a bit more Trinity-like -- if the series showed her doing more badass things *exclusive* of her involvement with Kirito, that it would go a long way to putting to rest this whole argument. (Another example that comes to mind is Marlene-Yuji from Blue Gender.)
As for myself, I'm still in a wait-and-see mode. Certainly I can understand, and to some extent sympathize, with both sides of the argument. I just don't think there's enough evidence yet to make a strong judgement one way or another, so I'm going to wait until that changes. |
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zensunni
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Where? Please quote the spot that I stated categorically that there was nothing sexist at all about the episode. I need to know how the words I type get read as this type of extreme, "categorical" statement. As to my statement about the Crunchyroll version being "sanitized" that is in comparison to the version you saw that involved the following:
and
The version I saw didn't involve any ass grabbing and nobody actually paid any attention to the two of them until she hit him. That is why I thought you must have seen a different version that had much more explicit and detailed groping, since you had already denied that you were using hyperbole, I must take you at your word that you saw ass grabbing and bystanders watching the show, ala "The Accused" while Kirito groped her. Why does this scene cause you to not take Asuna seriously as a character, by the way? Is it her fault that the accidental groping occurred? (Other than the fact that, yes, she knocked him down...) Is there something in the way her character behaved in the groping scene that makes you think that she is weak and not a character to be taken seriously? Or is it only the aftermath, when her bodyguard shows up and she hides behind Kirito. (Which I said in my original post I found a bit odd, but after hearing the dialog, understood that she was freaking out about the guy waiting outside her house.) I also find it fascinating that you feel that someone else should have done something about the violation of her person by Kirito, instead of her taking care of it, which she did, yet when Kirito responds to challenges leveled at him, not Asuna, one which is challenging his ability to serve as her bodyguard, which is actually what the first duel is about, you know. The guy's job is to be Asuna's bodyguard. She tries to get out of having that bodyguard, Kirito offers to take over that responsibility, the bodyguard tells him that there is no way he could do a better job and challenges him to a duel. After Kirito proves he is the stronger of the two and offers to allow the guy to continue with a new weapon, Asuna, who is no longer freaking out about a guy hanging around outside her house first thing in the morning, disarms the bodyguard with a single sword stroke, relieves him of his duty to her, and orders him to return to headquarters to await further orders. Somehow, you perceive her as weak. I can only assume that is because she was freaked out by finding a guy stalking her. (Regardless of whether it is her bodyguard or not, it is reasonable for her to be freaked out by that. Kirito was pretty shocked when she said it too.) I am not a woman, but if my daughter, in eight years when she is in college, called and told me that a some guy was waiting for her outside her dorm room without her permission, I would be freaked out. So, is it not a natural reaction for a woman to be freaked out in a situation like that? Is it not reasonable that she might be scared by it and want to get away from him so much that she runs away? After he finds her again, and she argues with him, he then tries to physically take her away against her will. Regardless of what you think about how Asuna should have reacted to that, you seem to think that Kirito stopping him makes it a sexist moment in the show. (While other people not doing anything when Kirito was, unknowingly, violating her person is aslo evidence of sexism.) Anyway, now that Kirito has committed the heinous sexist act of trying to stop a larger, stronger man from taking away the person that he is officially partied with for the day, it is another case of sexism when he is directly challenged, asks Asuna if it is OK that he accept it, and then duels the guy, giving him an out to stop. When he doesn't and Asuna does what you were saying she should have done in the first place, you still perceive the scene as undermining her strength and presenting her as weak. Sorry, I don't see that. It is ok for a woman, or a man, to occasionally freak out about things. After she calmed down, she took control, stopped the duel, and asserted her authority. I can see how you might interpret parts of that as sexist. I will readily admit that the boob grab part is sexist. But to feel that Asuna is a weaker character and ignore the fact that she is the one that actually settled things in the end, not to mention all of the other spots where she was portrayed as a strong, skilled character in the episodes in question, and stridently insist that your view is correct is a little harder to understand. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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All this talk of sexism has made me realize that SAO hasn't passed the Bechdel test yet.
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getchman
 He started itPosts: 9121 Location: Bedford, NH |
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wouldn't Asuna expressing relief over Liz still being alive count? or was that too short? Last edited by getchman on Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chagen46
Posts: 4377 |
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It technically counts, but not for much.
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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It is implicit in my comments why? You are right, I have presented a strenuous defense of my argument. So I guess we aren't supposed to do that then? If I present a strong argument supported by facts drawn from the show and press that argument when someone else tries to dismantle it piece by piece, that is me implicitly stopping them from having an opinion? I'm sorry but I just don't agree.
Yes I have responded to every comment that directly attacked a position which I was taking or attacked me. I think this is all fair in a discussion, and I would expect anyone else to do the same (as Zensunni has clearly been doing in his/her massive point by point arguments against everything I have said.) I see a few points where I took a position saying someone was wrong. However, I do not think that is the majority of how I have argued here (as will be outlined below) (1) where I was talking about Zensunni ignoring the boob grab scene and saying it was not sanitized, and he/she even later admitted that it was a sexist scene, (2) the point where I said all old men do not act abusively to younger girls, am I wrong there? (3) where I said the escort guy was a rude and abusive man and clearly wanting to duel Kirito because Kirito was trying to take Asuna from him, if you want to disagree with me on that fine, but I feel that was well displayed by the actual scene, and (4) where I said it was not the only objective of that final duel scene to just have a reason for Kirito to join the guild. As I and others have said, it seems kind of logical that the duel over Asuna is not absolutely necessary to reach this objective. There are many other ways it could have been done and Asuna could have simply refused it. It is hard to just accept that this only has to do with getting Kirito in the guild, given the fact that it is the second time Asuna is being dueled over. However, if you think it is so conclusive that it is the only reason fine, that is your opinion. Next, I have just gone back through each of my posts in this thread and want to highlight something fairly consistent in them. Many of them contain the words "I think/don't think this" or "I don't agree" or "in my opinion." These are the words of someone saying that this is only their opinion, and others are entitled to their own. Therefore I don't think you are being fair claiming that I am jumping on people or being ruthless or not allowing for tolerance of other opinions.
First, I have never said anyone was a sexist pig. You might be attributing someone else's words to me, but I have not said that or implied that about ANYONE in this thread. That is not right to assert that I have. I said more than once that I have enjoyed fan service shows, even shows that contain material which could be considered sexist. What I have been saying is that I think that material does not work in this show. My argument hasn't been against sexism in anime, my argument has been that I think the chauvinistic material in this show is detracting from the character development of Asuna, and also not helping Kirito move on from a wish-fulfillment shell-like character. I feel that has been fairly consistent in all of my arguments. Second, as far as me allegedly not giving room for compromise or not acknowledging other peoples viewpoints...
- Acknowledging that I thought ep 9 was the best episode in the series and also agreeing with Bamboo that female characters should not be pigeonholed.
- Acknowledging that those who said Asuna cooking or being Kirito's girlfriend is not sexist are correct.
- Acknowledging Bamboo's point that Asuna's role in the show is not closed an might improve in following episodes.
- Acknowledging that the boss fight in ep 9 was cool and even though I had an issue with how the dual swords were introduced, I enjoyed them and thought it was fun.
- Acknowledging Zensunni's correctness in each of these points, although I thought he/she was dodging the main issue I was addressing about the actual duel scene itself diminishing Asuna.
- Acknowledging Zensunni was correct about Asuna having a problem with her bodyguard, and then asking why she didn't take matters into her own hands.
- Agreeing that others could have a different interpretation than me about the chauvinism and think it was just Kirito being a nice guy, but still stating my belief that it is undermining to Asuna.
- Acknowledging Zensunni is right about the escort thinking Kirito is weaker, then arguing that that wasn't the reason he fought Kirito.
- Acknowledging Zensunni is right that there is concern in the guild for Asuna and it makes sense for her to have an escort. However, I felt that that was not an excuse for what happens with that escort.
- Acknowledging that it is not a good idea to kill escort, although I wasn't advocating for that in the first place.
- Acknowledging its not a good idea for the guild leader to threaten Kirito with murder, though again I wasn't advocating for that.
- Acknowledging that we are having different interpretations and that I would agree with Zensunni about Asuna just acting like a normal teenage girl but for the two conditions I indicated.
- Acknowledging that I would agree with Zensunni's position if Asuna were not allowing Kirito to fight her battles for her.
- Acknowledging that I would agree with superdry's point about Asuna just wanting to show how strong Kirito is if she hadn't been just hiding behind him.
- Acknowledging that superdry could be right about the super punch being an exaggeration, but that I am only going off of what has been presented thus far by the show and not speculation. Look, I'll agree with you that I am very assertive about my arguments, but at least I back stuff up with facts and try to be persuasive with dictionary definitions and actual evidence from what happened in the show, or comparisons to other shows. If others disagree with me then fine. I try to say "In my opinion" and "this is what I think" as much as possible. As I have shown above, I try to acknowledge things other people have said which are true, but if I still have a different point of view I will make it known. I don't call them names and I certainly haven't called anyone a sexist pig.
I have said that the boob grab is part of a series of events which have diminished Asuna. I haven't been making that argument to say SAO is some horribly sexist show which no one can enjoy, I have been making that argument primarily to talk about how actions or set ups involving Asuna which have sexist implications have been making her a weak and poorly developed character. You may disagree, but that is my opinion and I have tried to back that up with evidence, not just rhetoric. You may believe that Asuna smacking Kirito across the plaza was meaningless. My opinion is that it wasn't, especially since there have been other instances of physicality in this show and there has been nothing to say that it was not possible within the game mechanic. (As I said, if we had seen some kind of attempt by another player to hit a player in town and an invisible wall came up, this would be such evidence.) I don't think it is blowing something out of proportion to simply take at face value what is presented by the show. It may be inconvenient to Zensunni's argument about how Asuna could do nothing to stop her escort from dragging her into the teleporter, but that does not make it wrong. |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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Passing the Bechdel test on a technicality is still not great. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I think your series of statements here shows that you were saying I was wrong about there being sexism in the way Kirito and Asuna are being portrayed there, and you end it by saying "if you can tell me where in the show he is making her submit to him, please point it out." Well I think the point where he grabs her breasts was a pretty good point and that's what I was responding to. You didn't use "sexist" every time in those quotes, but you did in some of them and all of them were in reference to the same topic of Asuna being made some kind of object or submissive in regards to Kirito. Again, you asked "if you can tell me where in the show he is making her submit to him." I responded. |
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getchman
He started it Posts: 9121 Location: Bedford, NH |
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not my fault an MMO is mostly comprised of dudes |
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Fencedude5609
Posts: 5088 |
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Thats not really the point. |
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Chagen46
Posts: 4377 |
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SAO has a markedly higher amount of women than most MMOs, from what we've seen, though. Maybe there isn't such a stigma against gamer girls in 2022? |
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