Forum - View topicREVIEW: Gundam 00 DVD Season 1 Part 3
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Well, to be fair to dtm42 and Charred Knight , I too feel that Sunrise has dipped in quality in the past decade. Maybe all their best talents left for Bones?
Ironically, it's shows like Cowboy Bebop and Escaflowne that were never that popular in Japan, whereas Code Geass is a phenomenon. It's probably not best to hang your hopes on any particular studio. Last edited by penguintruth on Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kaioshin_Sama
Posts: 1215 |
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Considering I still find them to be superior among a few others when it comes to making enjoyable anime than what passes for artistic quality nowadays (coughkyoaniguffaw) I think that a small dip in quality doesn't hurt. Also considering that I think all of anime has dipped in quality on account of recent trends such as the rise of moe (you either have moe characters in your show or you don't make money), the demise of the western anime market and the current recession I think people are shooting at the wrong target as far as "the devil" in anime goes. As far as I'm concerned almost all anime studios have experienced a dip in quality as the decade has gone on, and yet only a few of them are paying the price as far as internet criticism goes. This is fair how? Again just another reason why I think so-called anime fans are shooting themselves in the foot and paving the way to the collapse of the anime industry they protest to fear so much. Personally I don't think it will ever come, but if people keep this nonsense up it very well might become a self-fulfilling prophecy along with this whole belief that Sunrise is the "trainwreck" studio that can do nothing write ever. Still Bandai/Sunrise soldiers on along with the likes of Bones and Madhouse, the latter of which keeps winning itself into my interest group as far as the anime they produce goes and the former of which has long established itself as powerhouse. Here's to hoping anime makes it out of the next decade. |
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Kalessin
 Posts: 931 |
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It's a great example of how tastes can differ. In this case, it's the general tastes of the Japanese vs the general tastes of the Western audience. What sells great in one place can do pretty poorly in another and vice versa. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I think that there are many cases where shows are genuinely better than others, but there are also plenty of cases where it's a matter of taste rather than quality. And there is a definite tendency for folks to say that stuff they like is of high quality, and stuff that they don't like is of low quality even when it's really more a question of taste than quality. Just one more thing in life which is highly subjective. |
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hissatsu01
 Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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Anti-american? That's a bit hilarious. When given the choice of thinking it's sarcasm or thinking I truly believe US citizens are hooked up to a hive mind, you assume the latter. The bit about missing out on jury duty didn't even clue you in at all? What's insulting is your sweeping generalization of Americans. Way to reduce a nation of over 300 million with probably the most diverse population of any industrialized country to simple stereotypes. If Gundam 00 portrayed the Americans as flag waving, hot dog and hamburger eating characters that blazed with passion, you might like it better, though to everyone else it might look like a ridiculous caricature. Last edited by hissatsu01 on Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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You are as hilarious as always, Kaioshin_Sama. And I see your penchant for bluster has not abated. Calling us trolls is sort of crazy when A: we aren't and B: you are a huge troll yourself. Look at the way you have burst into this thread (after more than two weeks without posting) and immediately started slandering everyone who doesn't agree with you. If I didn't already know how you were like I'd have reported you, but you do provide a certain amount of entertainment value. As for me being "biased" against the second season of 00 that is completely untrue. As I've previously said in this thread I had fairly low expectations of it, which is actually a bias in favour of a show. Get your facts straight. Oh wait, this is you we're talking about. Carry on then.
This is a review by Carl "gives out arbitrary scores" Kimlinger. He can be a funny writer at times but you should always take his scores with a grain of salt. Always.
Dude, this is silly, even for you. It is not a demand to want the sequel to a very good and massively popular show (i.e. Code Geass) to be generally close to the quality of the original. It is a reasonable expectation by fans. That's all there is to it. You can argue all you like, but there is absolutely no way in hell that the expectation of decent quality is an unreasonable demand. But if you want to, by all means argue until your face goes red. Just send me a picture, will you? 'Kay thanks. Ah, I love it when Kaioshin_Sama comes and visits us. He's so easy it's almost like shooting fish in a barrel. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Wouldn't you say popping Disney's Pocahantas in expecting War & Peace would be insanity? Enjoy Gundam all you want, but it isn't Death Note or Evangelion which set out to have a point other than pitching a merchandise tie-in. Gundam has a line of toys to sell. The anime needs to make the kids want those toys. Depending on the staff, they can put in just enough effort to sell the product, or they can put a little more effort into it. I cannot tell you how many guys I spoke to in late 1999 who expressed the hope all the projected disasters of 2000 would happen. I was horrified one told me his last employer didn't pay enough for the work he did. Sorry. That tech was paid to do a job at an agreed upon price. Just because the job required more than he thought it would doesn't mean the employer needs to fail. If a Gundam title lives up to its expectations & sells toys, how can it be considered a failure just because some viewers wanted an epic?
I thought R2 was popular in Japan. I vaguely recall weren't people upset about some delays in the eps airing? (Or was that a different title?)
I love Jack in the Box's commercials. They're cool, hip, & amusing. SOme are better than others, but my enjoyment of the commerical is really second to whether it sells the product thus with Gundam the point is whether the latest incarnation of Gundam moves toys. If they could make an anime of the Gundams just fighting & stuff & it sold toys, don't you think they'd be justified in running it since the purpose is to sell toys? Don't you think any attempt at a plot is to maintain the existing fanbase so they'll buy the upper-end models? Isn't it a given companies make the most money putting together a product as cheaply as possible that can do the job? Some companies have a vested interest in having quality equated with their name, but this rarely applies to commercial tv.
The Japanese do a wonderful job of not getting American culture, don't you think? I find it so funny they usually don't have a clue. A standing joke in my house is the only places that exist as far as Japan is concerned is New York, LA, & Frisco. When I find an anime that deals with another place in the US, we joke another city exists to Japan. I suppose it's true of other countries in anime, but I'm American, so I really just notice how little they get about us. [/quote] |
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Kaioshin_Sama
Posts: 1215 |
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Do you want me to go and find the post you made in the interim between Code Geass R2 and Gundam 00 Season 2 starting up where you said you were going to be "extremely critical" of Gundam 00 Season 2 yet again? People that can't remember their own words are pretty funny themselves. Seems we have something in common though as I think having a reasonable expectation for quality out of a show is pretty normal. However how is entering every tangibly related thread to bitch about a show after the fact like you and Charred Knight do supposed to make a difference again? Last I checked time doesn't work that way. 
Let me know how your goals are going and if you've accomplished them at some point though whatever they may be beyond thread shitting every topic on Sunrise anime along with Charred Knight. I mean number 2 in a thread for a show you consistently protest to hate just so you can beat Charred Knight to the punch and nail a guy who was simply expressing appreciation for a show, that's some dedication if nothing else and sure looks like pro class trolling to me. Gotta keep it competitive though I guess. P.S: Did it possibly occur to you that I was referring to the content of the article and not the letters that came at the end of it? Wait I'm not sure if I'm ready to handle the answer to that....never mind.
Ahem...you know those works are still centred around making a profit just the same as anything else and have more than their share of merchandise, especially Evangelion which is like it's own set of merchandise in how many times they keep rereleasing it.  I wonder.....why it is that merchandise suddenly becomes a talking point whenever Gundam and it's Gunpla line is concerned and peope try to generalize that as being the sole reason for it's existence? Sigh....
Last edited by Kaioshin_Sama on Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kalessin
Posts: 931 |
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Maybe it's my fault for mentioning up front that things get even better in the second season, but this thread sure doesn't seem to be talking about the review much.
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Kaioshin_Sama
Posts: 1215 |
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As far as I am concerned you didn't do anything wrong, but unfortunately when you post in a thread about popular Sunrise series you can be guaranteed that the same group of people will always come in and try to sermonize you about how bad and full of ZOMG PLOT HOLES it is until the thread goes completely to crap. It would have happened no matter what the actual topic judging by the pattern set by dtm42 and Charred Knight. Although perhaps the fact that somebody made the mistake of professing that they actually enjoyed the show *gasp* and that the second season enhanced that feeling helped to expedite their arrival since god forbid anybody should be able to express appreciation for anything Sunrise related anymore and have it go over well on the internets. Anyway to say SOMETHING for the actual topic of the 3rd DVD, this is the part of the show where things start to really kick off and it loses it's mission of the week formula for something a little more dynamic. I kind of do agree with the criticism that the show does take too long to get going and it effects it a fair bit down the line, but watch as I now say the unlikely for this threads tone in that it didn't completely ruin the show as far as I'm concerned. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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@CCSYueh:
Sunrise has proved that it can make a good story. I mean, Cowboy Bebop and Vision of Escaflowne for heaven's sakes. And for the Gundam franchise they have previously impressed me with SEED. All I expect from them is to make an Anime of the quality we all know they are capable of. @Kaioshin_Sama: You talk a lot about the one post I made supposedly saying that I was going to be too critical of 00's second season. But you have never provided an ounce of proof. If it really exists then link to it already. And yes, I want a link rather than you just quoting stuff I supposedly said out of context. |
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Kaioshin_Sama
Posts: 1215 |
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animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=650392#650392 My personal favourite part:
And you certainly were honest if nothing else about being "very critical" of season 2. So much so you still haven't called it quits it would seem. Though if I were to try and rationalize "I'm going to be very critical of" with "but if it turns out to be good I'll be happier than anyone else here" I think my head would explode from the logical loop de loop necessary to have the concept make sense within our reality. As I give it a go at trying to decipher the possibility of ever liking something while devoting all my reactions to it towards finding ways to criticize it constantly on internet forums I'll ask you if you've ever heard of the self-fulfilling prophecy theory and to look it up either way? P.S: I still love the wording of the rest of the post after the part I quoted directly where you take a stab at convincing people that you really hope to enjoy the show when really no matter how hard you try to hide it you're basically screaming that you have every intention of just nitpicking the hell of the show and enforcing these nitpicks upon everybody on the forum no matter what it came up with. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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First off, to anyone who hasn't seen season two yet, just know that the link directs to you to the discussion of the second season. So spoilers and whatnot.
Anyway . . . First off, it is important to note that by the time I had made that post two episodes had already aired. Though I had gone into the show with low expectations, those episodes were so bad (especially the first) that I realised it wouldn't even meet such expectations. So I instead decided to rip the season a new one, based on what I had seen thus far. Hmm, reading back I can only pat myself on the back for refusing to blindly love the series. I mean, the first episode of the second season was absolutely terrible, especially regarding the editing which was staggeringly choppy in the second half (of the episode). The second episode had a good fight with - I have to be honest here - awesome background music, but boy if the inane dialogue didn't rear its head up again to ruin it straight after. And when you add in the main development of that episode spoiler[(that there was a new Lockon),] it was a poor twenty-four minutes. What the post that you linked to was about was telling people that I wasn't going to overlook these rather big faults. They all thought the first two episodes were the cat's pyjamas, but I knew better. Sunrise had completely and utterly dropped the ball with R2, and now I was seeing big mistakes in just the first couple of episodes in 00's second season. If you read my entire post rather than just that paragraph you'll understand that. So anyway, I told those jokers (which obviously included you as well) point blank that I was going to judge the show not as a mindless fanboy but as a person who was not going to put up with crap. Then they basically lynched me for daring to point out such obvious flaws. How fun. For the record I still stand by what I wrote back then. Absolutely I do. But I will say though Kaioshin_Sama that you were remarkably prescient in predicting that I would hate the show overall. You said:
Perhaps if I had switched off my brain as well then yeah, I might have enjoyed it. But I wanted a show that was good god damn it, not something so bad you had to get a lobotomy just to enjoy. As to why I kept watching it (right to the painful end), well I'm ashamed at myself for having done so. Definitely a case of live and learn. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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What does that have to do with the price of tea in China or different titles made by an animation studio creating product to meet the specific demands of a client? Columbia released Ishtar, considered one of THE Box Office Bombs ever, but they also have produced a lot of excellent titles like Ghostbusters.
In case you haven't read, it's almost impossible for any title to be made any more without someone looking at merchandise tie-ins. Kid titles just tend to be the most brasen about it. Any movie/show/whatever is hoped to at least recover the cost of production & hopefully turn a profit. Unless it's a labor of love/vanity press which are rarely expected to make a profit Are you suggesting Eva was created to sell toys? Or that toys were made to cash in on the title's popularity? Yes, the purpose of Death Note & any manga is to sell copies of the magazine. If the title is popular, they'll make merchandise to cash in on it. As much as I love Tsumikabatsu, I have yet to see any merchandise attached to it. Pencilboards, posters, etc in the various magazines are there to entice readers into buying a zine they maybe wouldn't otherwise. I'm not stupid about how entertainment works. Starving artists may sound romantic, but the reality of it sucks hard. I read more than my share of stories of bands in the 80's hitting that "we haven't made it, so we're breaking up". And in case you didn't realize it, there have been wildly popular ad campaigns that have been dropped because for all their popularity, they didn't sell product & thus were deemed dailures.
Has there ever been a Gundam that wasn't created to support a line of merchandise? I don't know about others, but I have less respect for titles like .hack that was planned as a media blitz--game, manga, anime. I recall it was heralded as a super event, but I see a lot of holes in the show & the manga. (haven't played the games). It doesn't mean I don't find them enjoyable on a certain level, but they do not stand up to something like Saiyuki or Descendants of Darkness. Obviously DBZ has a pile of merchandise attached to it & Toriyama was by most accounts ordered to continue the manga when he wanted to end it (same for Marmalade Boy & Kodocha as I recall reading), but it doesn't change the fact the original manga it's based on is wonderful in it's own way & revolutionized shonen manga. It's hard to find an existing shonen mangaka that has come up since that hasn't been affected by Toriyama in some way. Can you really say the same for Gundam? Granted Gundam is an extraordinary product to try to compare because there are so many incarnations of it people can miss some & like others. My understanding is there is a split in the hardcore fandom over the hard Gundam stuff & the fluffier bishonen-laden stuff perceived as gal-attracting bait which in itself should prove Gundam is whoring itself out. I thought 00 is the less respectable bishonen-laden version. It has Shinichiro Miki for heaven's sake. Do you know how many semes he's played in yaoi? How many gal harem titles he's been in? How many popularity polls has Mamoru Miyano won in the last couple years? Didn't a video about his marriage & impending birth of a child have to be taken down over the wife & the unborn child a year ago? Bringing them into Gundam screams "Fangirls, come on over!" Believe it or not, there are VA's who have little to no yaoi/harem to their credit & there are Gundam titles filled with those VA's. Go look at this site's Mobile Suit Gundam (TV) listing. Wing, Seed, Seed Destiny & 00 are noticably missing. Maybe it's a reflection of the makers' belief gals just want to drool over bishies, staff doesn't have to worry about plot holes as long as the boys look good doing whatever (doujinshi fodder)? I don't hear such things about Legend of the Galactic Heroes. With character designs by a yaoi artist (Kouga) what do you think the studio's target was? Hiring Clamp, the most popular shojo artist team in the US & wildly popular among female fans around the world for Code Geass (& not unfamiliar with shonen ai themes), what do you think the target audience of Code Geass includes? Why didn't they stick with shonen artists for the character designs? Do you know how many yaoi doujins there are of SuzakuXLelouche (& LeloucheXSuzaku)? LockonXTieria? LockonXSetsuna? Can't you see the wiggle-room inserted into both anime that support those doujinshi? And that doujinshi widens the fanbase so the gals buy the figures, etc. Money makes the world go around. |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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I love this quote. Would make a great sales-enticing tagline for some boneheaded anime out there. 
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Kaioshin_Sama
Posts: 1215 |
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Now that I think of it kind of describes the structure of dtm42's post up there. If at first you don't succeed don't worry about trying a new approach or changing your tone, just get a whole lot louder with your message. Yep, that fixes everything on the internets. May he continue in his quest to save anyone from drawing any ounce of enjoyment out of this show for themselves and their interests. It's even funnier now because he sounds exactly like those trolls that they like to make fun of over on MAHQ's Gundamn Podcast.
Oh that wasn't a blind prediction......
Why does this turn into a rant against yaoi near the bottom when this subtopic is supposed to be about merchandise in relation to anime? 
Anyway what I'm saying is that I don't think Gundam's sole purpose is to sell toys otherwise they would have just run TV spots for the model kits instead. The whole franchise is horizontally and vertically integrated to be among other things an entertainment piece, science fiction, manga, anime, novels, games and yes model kits. Not everything comes down simply to selling toys in the end, that's just an oversimplification the internets seems to like to make. Take the article we should be talking about for example, this is a DVD they are trying to sell for profit, if people don't deem it worth their money (by the way feel free to snatch this line up if you must for your virtuous mission dtm42) it's not going to have anything to do with toys and models. And yes Eva has plenty of questionable merchandise to go with it from dating sim games, to models (yes just like Gundam) to collectors items from the franchise like Pen-Pen plush dolls to props to my personal favourite.....it's own bloody clothing line. It's actually quite normal depending on your definition of the word. And yes I agree few franchises have as much merchandise and crap to along with it compared to Gundam, but I think it's important to factor in not only the size of this franchise, but time as well. Considering it's been going 30 years and is pretty much the dominant special interest franchise in Japan that isn't moeblob it's going to have a lot of official and in many cases unnofficial merchandise like the doujin you mentioned. Last edited by Kaioshin_Sama on Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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