Forum - View topicNEWS: LA Times Article on Fansubs
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
TsubomiKoneko
 Posts: 247 |
|
|||||
|
Okay my thoughts here.
They need to stop saying fansubbers are causing problems for the licensing/anime releasing industry cause really they aren't. It's the cheap people who take advantage of fansubs that are. You have the people (like me and some others) who will watch a series, like it, and then find out it got licensed (I'm gonna use Midori no Hibi as an example, I watched the entire series fansubbed... and am now buying the domestic release DVDs. I already have volume one and am very happy with it since my husband likes it too and he wasn't able to watch the fansubs with me because we can't both sit in front of the computer) and decide to buy the DVDs and do so when they come out. Then you have the people who watch the series, find out it's licensed later and go "Meh I already saw this so who cares". And don't buy the DVD. However, I bet, if you took fansubs away from both groups the following would happen. The first group would see the DVDs in a store and go "Hmm... maybe this is worth checking out" and possibly buy it. The second group will see the DVD in a store and go "I don't wanna waste my money I'll just wait for one of my friends to get it" or something else like that. It's just that, they're cheap. No offense to anyone that falls into this category. But pretty much that's all I can figure you are. If you really liked a series and weren't cheap you'd do all you can to support it, if not by buying the original Japanese merchandise and DVDs before it's licensed, buying the domestic (and might I add WAY CHEAPER) DVDs and merchandise once it is licensed. I personally am buying all the Japanese release DVDs of an anime I really like, this is costing me over $300 total. When/if it gets licensed I plan on buying the domestic release ones as well (and giving my husband nightmares because it's shounen-ai lol). Oh wait I should also put kids into this, kids download anime too and well not all kids have money, and not all parents are willing to buy their kids DVDs... so um to that crowd... it's your parents who are cheap lol. Just be good and buy the DVDs when you grow up. |
||||||
|
||||||
prime_pm
 Posts: 2337 Location: Your Mother's Bedroom |
|
|||||
|
My thoughts exactly. Even though I myself have all the Evangelion episodes on variations of cassette and dvd, I still collect the Platinum versions as well, if for the only reason that this series inspired me into the hobby of anime fandom.
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
prime_pm
Posts: 2337 Location: Your Mother's Bedroom |
|
|||||
|
And that's exactly the idea I'm getting at. Most people are willing to get freebies rather than pay for anything these days. I used to go to the mall every weekend just to keep picking up free samples of teriyaki chicken because I couldn't afford dinner. The problem with anime, however, what has already been said by t-shirts, is that it really is more expensive than crack. I have an entire cd bookcase, each page holding four dvd's, and about thirty pages inside, and it is FULL! Do the math, and it comes to over two thousand dollars worth in anime. And some of them aren't even complete sets yet! A friend of mine, though, used Netflix since February, and now owns a thousand dollars worth of anime and he probably only paid about a hundred for everything.
|
||||||
|
||||||
Isaaru
 Posts: 375 Location: the oppressed colonies in outer space |
|
|||||
Im doing my "duty" as well GoodLuckSaturday. I owe it to the industry. But licensing before a show ends will not stop many of fansubbers today. Many will say the usual excuses (dvd prices, english voice acting, companies that do it for the money, TV edits, etc) for self justification. (example: Champloo, Naruto). However, not wanting to wait a couple years to finish the story is a decent reason. But most of the time I just hear lame excuses not to support the license. That's not good for the studios at all. can't wait till Naruto airs. The Narutards who worship the fansubs will come out of the woodworks and scare the hell out of folks who dares check out the license. Imagine the opening of the movie Scream, but with Drew Barrymore's character watching Naruto on Toonami. Suddenly a call from a Kakashi cosplayer is answered. "Whats your favorite Justu?" "Centerfold Technique" "wrong answer $!@#" As Kakashi sneaks it with a sharp CD marked "Naruto fansubs." |
||||||
|
||||||
AstroNerdBoy
 Posts: 413 Location: Denver, CO |
|
|||||
If it is a "B" title (a "Rent" title in my reviews), you are right. I have a rule when it comes to buying (rarely violated) -- I ain't buying any DVD unless I've seen it first. I'm not wasting my money on something I'm not going to watch again (B-titles for example). I will spend my money on really good titles, especially if FUNimation has the license because at least they bother to use full Japanese honorifics in the subtitles. If Geneon were smart, they'd have done the same thing, but alas they are not so smart.
So many titles and the price of the titles really hasn't gone down except for the really old titles that have been licensed for years. Anime is too expensive to blow money on crappy B-titles. It is going to cost a fortune just to own Full Metal Alchemist, something I did see fansubbed BTW.
Do you know that what gets licensed from Japan is only a small portion of the anime over there? Japan produces TONS of anime, a lot of it sucks. Those titles don't even get fansubbed (most of the time). Sometimes good titles get skipped. Keroro Gunsou has yet to be licensed. Kanon hasn't been touched. It took a long time for To Heart to be picked up. You're Under Arrest 2 remains unlicensed. Geneon, ADV, Viz, Bandai, and the rest can cry me a river all they want. If they want my money, they are going to have to work for it. I'm buying B-titles (Yu Yu Hakusho) from FUNimation because it is fun to me, I'll watch it more than once, and the subtitles ROCK! Since the other companies won't put in full honorifics, then most of my money is going to FUNimation, with ultra-good titles by the others being my only contribution to their companies (about 1 per company). |
||||||
|
||||||
mufurc
 Posts: 612 |
|
|||||
|
My 2 cents...
Actually.... yes, even despite all this he might be wrong.  Anime fan or not, industry insider or not, he's looking at the problem from his own point of view, and he might be unaware of recent trends in internet-based anime fandom (not to mention he might deliberately ignore some facts - I mean, it's not like he's in the position to say 'actually, fansubs really help boosting the popularity of some series' because that would be seen as encouraging the distribution of fansubs).
The market is growing and fans are getting picky. Even though there are lots of titles available, most people can't afford buying every anime they're interested in; not to mention it's only natural that people want to know for sure that they like a series before spending lots of money on it. (And stop coming with the movie example - paying for seeing a movie in the theater is not the same as buying an entire anime series.) In Japan, one can 'evaluate' series by watching them on TV and that way one can decide if a series is worth getting or not (though Japanese DVD prices are insane, so I think most people there just stick to their video/DVD recordings or download anime illegally). However, in most other countries one can only get a few selected series on TV with lots of other titles that won't ever make it to the TV screen. So people turn to other sources to make sure they won't regret spending their money on anime. How can one preview a series that isn't being shown on TV? One can read about them in magazines, yes, but somehow I doubt that one article can inspire the majority of people to purchase a, say, 26-episode series. There's also the chance to watch promo episodes at cons, but as I see, most people don't believe in previewing a series by watching one episode of it - especially as the first episodes are sometimes rather misleading. All in all, fansubs are the easiest way to evaluate a series and decide if one likes it enough to buy it or not. (Alright, one can also rent DVDs, though I have no idea how that works in the US... and even so, renting a 26-episode series on DVD vs free fansubs. Which one would anyone with a broadband connection choose?) Besides, I think the vast majority of those people who only download fansubs and don't buy domestic releases even though they could afford them wouldn't buy them even if fansubs weren't available. Then they would just wait for the inevitable DVD rips. And then there's the fact that fansubs can and do influence the popularity of certain series. Would FMA and Naruto be such great hits in the R1 market if fansubs didn't help in generating hype for them way before they were licensed? And on the other end of the spectrum, where is Samurai Gun, a prelicensed series that no-one has subbed? Where's Keroro Gunsou, another series no-one is subbing? They're practically unknown in the Western fandom. As I see, for many 'B' (not overhyped) series there's a market only because people watched them fansubbed before they were licensed and decided they were worth getting. (Articles in magazines and trailers are fine but few people are adventurous enough to buy a longer series based on some review they read.) Fansubs are easily accessible and thus can easily generate interest in a series before it's even licensed. (And somehow I really doubt companies don't realize this.) In any case, there's one thing I know for sure: I wouldn't own the anime and manga I own if it wasn't for fansubs and scanlations. |
||||||
|
||||||
Sir_Brass
 Posts: 476 Location: Prescott, AZ |
|
|||||
Actually, Bandai does pretty good, and also is--from what I've seen as a part of the fansub community (both as leecher and contributor)--one of THE most fansubber-friendly companies. Sure they are falling in line with the rest in nay-saying fansubs and I'm not surprised or disappointed by this. It would be DUMB for them to not do so from a business point of view. However, their actions essentially have given their nay-saying the addition of the "nudge nudge wink wink, eh?" effect. They seem to understand how fansubs help promote their titles before the NA release, from what I've seen. Essentially they've been all roar and not much bite (iirc, though, they did send C&D orders to one of the groups fansubbing GSD when it was licensed because otherwise that group would've continued to sub GSD. and said group willingly complied), and they're doing just fine. They're definitely NOT litigation-happy ADV (yes folks, part of what you pay for for an ADV disc goes to their over-payed lawyers  , and not to those who are critical to making a release quality. I wonder who I'D want my $$ going to support . . .), and from their actions show that they can peacefully coexist beside fansubbers, and from that Bandai has my support more than ever, because they also do good work in addition. They're one anime distributor that has the right idea and is showing that it works. 
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
maiyo
Posts: 2 |
|
|||||
|
I think that fansubbing is good or bad, depending on the position you take (ie: consumer, marketer). But this topic, fansub vs anti-fansub is too complex to define as hindering or benefiting the anime industry. I'll have to agree that it's a double edge sword tho. Yet there are other social, economical, financial, personal factors that make it hard to label fansubbing as good or bad to an industry or to the consumer.
Also this whole 'A' verses 'B' issue, it depends on the audience's preferences. That would vary greally. But I dont think it's primarily taking 'A' (IMO, popular) anime and distributing them here, but I think it's also like an issue of studio production and American sponsorship/profits. For example, some people pointed out that some anime were licensed before it could air and I think the main reason for that would be the studio. Famous studios like Gonzo and Bones or studios sponsored by Bandai, that did a certain anime will most likely be picked up by a certain American company. Therefore it should be no surprise if anime done by XXX group were picked up by YYY company. Yet this issue is just another factor that makes fansubbing/anti-fansubbing complicated. Before I forget, I want to make a comment about what Steve pointed out about dubbers. I think it's an interesting point. To be honest, I'm not fond of dubbers and most people that I've known buy the DVDs so they can watch the subtitled version. They never touch the dubs. Or most people watch the dubs because they dont want to read the subtitles, it depends on the individual. Recently, dubbers have become much better (thank goodness), but I think dubbers only exist to promote the series on American/English TV (i've not heard of a dubbed anime aired on American/English TV that showed the episode until the end. I could be wrong since I'm currently TV-deprived). Personally, I think dubbers should be reduced (or not be employed) to lower production costs if markeeters use fansubber's audience base to promote the anime. Well that's just my opinon. |
||||||
|
||||||
Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
|
|||||
|
||||||
|
||||||
Haiseikoh 1973
 Posts: 1590 Location: Waiting for the Japanese 1000 Gunieas. |
|
|||||
And people wonder why Dubya went guns blazing into a war that we've pretty much ****ed ourselves into. Same could be true of most Corporations today; instead of thinking "outside of the box" they only wish to hold on to time honored techniques and models. Yet they kicked themselves in the rear when some upstart decides to "try something new" and glomps them in their profit margins. Used Coffee Grinds anyone? Makes Good Compost!! |
||||||
|
||||||
TiredGamer
 Posts: 246 Location: Florida |
|
|||||
|
This is such a tired debate, and I really wish ANN would just make a special feature topic to collect each month's articles about fansubs and the various debates over them. Looking over one 100+ comment thread is much easier than 5 40+ comment threads (since everyone has to get in their opinion at least once before replying to others).
The basic appeal of fansubs is free and before-release. Nobody is going to win anymore by saying "it covers stuff that won't be released" because just about everything made in the last 5 years is already being released. Even ancient stuff like Urusei Yatsura is being released on DVD by AnimEigo (albiet slowly). The few titles that are not being released are very rarely ever fansubbed these days because there's no fame in subbing them. The tired argument about television being free is total crap and everyone knows it. None of the on-air stations in the United States broadcast anime other than kid's stuff (which isn't what most folks want fansubbed). The other stations are cable and some (like TechTV/G4 and the On Demand networks) require digital cable. Be that as it may, these networks are there and their list of offered anime is growing monthly. Finally, many rental chains are starting to stock full sections of anime. So many A and B list anime are being made availible in a previewable format that is quite cheap. In the end, if you download fansubs, you are just trying to get something for free and before anyone else. It's a delusion to claim otherwise. This doesn't make fansubs a bane to the industry, but if one is competing against FREE it is not easy to sell one's wares. It can add word-of-mouth, but it can also give people an excuse not to pay ("it's not worth it" the downloader says as he avoids paying for what he's got stored for free on his 4.7GB DVD-Rs). I used to seek the middle ground, but I can see that as more DVD ripper groups filter in, the fansub scene is changing from fans subbing for love to a bunch of teenage anime pirates seeking fame (or infamy). |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
|
|||||
|
I'm fairly sure the orignal topic here from the article was the claim that fan subs are hurting the dub market which I posted about and it looks like most people aren't really addressing much now except their take on the value of fansubbers or dubbers even still with respects to those who did and didn't.
We should be able to get the idea already. As I said, this is an issue based on the individual, the individual usually would want the fan subs, plain and simple. And no one seems to want to say anything anymore against the point that they definetly are hurting dubbers yet also helping depending on the situationt and that it's their job to take action about it, plain and simple. This certainly is a tired debate with nothing even being debated anymore if no one really addresses the direct topic. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
bluechibi
Posts: 137 |
|
|||||
|
I thought this whole A B issue was about fansub groups and fans being more interested in hugely popular shows such as FMA/Naturo (that the US companies would see are popular from seeing the Japanese interest) than little know animes that could probably do with promoting. Does fansubbing promote a series? Yes in a way it does but it's not worth it anymore. Any advantages will be ignored by the fact that many (possibly tens of) thousands have little interest in watching the series on TV or buying it on DVD for the reasons that they have it illegal on their PC or why buy or watch something you've already seen before.
It's not about fansubs hurting dubs it's about fansub hurting the anime industry in many countries not just America. The UK in a recent poll came top on downloading TV series. The UK doesnt have a big anime industry like the US at the moment so if a few 1000 fans have already seen or own an illegal fansubbed anime then it could hurt the legal release and not perform as well. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Isaaru
Posts: 375 Location: the oppressed colonies in outer space |
|
|||||
not everyone gets the idea here. Especially people who are new to the issue and hearing about this through the Times article. Espcially people new to fansubbing. Fansubs are never a tired debate as long as people who are trying out fansubs for the first time are growing each day. This is an issue and always should be debated and put out into the open. But people do forget other reasons why fansubs hurt the industry: I believe the problem lies with people who own fansubs sharing thier downloads offline and with friends, and spreading the news of thier existance to so many people new to the industry through forums and chatrooms where the issue is not morally debated. They are also hurting the dubbers and the industry by telling people that they have the "real" versions, and its "direct" from Japan. And then of course diss the hell out of the liscensing companies for "taking the anime away from them." With Full Metal Alchemist on the rise and quite popular, the people will simply come out of the woodworks telling people that they have the whole series and they dont have to wait for Funi's DVDs or wait for AS to show them all. In the end the people who download the series seem more in control of how the anime is distrubuted to the hardcore audience than the licensors who pay for that. In the end, the people who download the fansubs generate the negative publicity by spreading the news around about thier "true and direct" versions threaten the industry more than simply getting the series for "free." |
||||||
|
||||||
|
serilia
Posts: 1 |
|
|||||
Though I agree that fansubs can hurt the industry in sales, there are many advantages to be gained that should not be dismissed. Many companies use the reactions of american audiences to fansubs as a way of estimating the potential success of the series . It helps them make decision as to which animes are worth licensing by determining how good of a fan base has risen from fansubs alone. It helps make the anime popular among fans without having to spend a cent on publicity themselves. The obvious disadvantage of fansubs due to loss in sales can be conpensated by perks of having free publicity for a series and getting a pretty secure trial run of the series on american audiences before making any monetary commitment to licensing it. |
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group