Forum - View topicWhy is there so much hate towards Evangelion?
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7985 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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While I don't hate Neon Genesis Evangelion, I do think that it's incredibly over-rated. It's good, but it's also got flaws too which drag the series down. Also while the series does actually have some real depth such as in the characters, it also has plenty of false depth created by deliberately not explaining things and slinging meaningless symbolism around.
Last edited by Kruszer on Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4089 |
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I don't hate the Evangelion series, I hate The End of Evangelion movie but if Anno's vision of the movie was what he intended for the series then, yeah, I hate Evangelion. But at least its attractive people doing ugly things to themselves and other people rather than ugly people doings ugly things like Gilgamesh and Basilisk {ok, that one's 50/50}.
Enjoy the pain? Why, this is supposed to be a form of entertainment, not psychotherepy? So far, the reboot movies have been an improvement but we all know how the Gainax studio feels about endings - if it doesn't just kill the mood and the good feelings of the audience then there's no point in finishing the series. Shinji Ikari? I don't like the series version but I'm behind the reboot version. Well, I haven't seen the third one yet... |
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Knoepfchen
 Posts: 698 |
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Well, I could turn on fangirl mode and say something as bold and arrogant as most of the people who claim to hate it just didn't get what was going on and have to save face.
 Since I am, of course, part of an intelligent elite, I have to consider it to be a masterpiece.
On a more serious note, I do consider it to be a masterpiece. It was my first anime series after some Ghibli movies, I was blown away, but fond memories aside, I still think it's something quite special. I never had a problem with Shinji, on the contrary. He was so much more relatable than so many other teenage anime characters and shonen heroes that crossed my path later on. I love the last 2 episodes. I don't care if they look like they do because of production values, I think they're awesome. After watching the first reboot movie, I decided against watching the other ones so far, it seemed somewhat sugarcoated to me and had lost the edge that I liked so much. (Maybe some people would call this the flaws getting fixed, but not me.) Someday, I will watch them, but not right now. But yeah, it's still really popular decades after it has been made, people have expectations that maybe get disappointed (I feel that way with every one of those horribly paced C. Nolan movies, so I get the general point), and sometimes, hating is just the way to go. Like in case of Twilight.  But I'm digressing.
It doesn't really bother me if other people like the stuff I like, though. I showed EVA to 3 different people, one loved it more than I do, one was still pretty impressed, and the last one still went as far as admitting there was something to it, it just wasn't quite for him. I was curious to hear what they thought, but every outcome would have been fine for me, dislike or boredom included. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3886 Location: New York state. |
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I will be up front and admit I'm not a fan of the Eva TV anime. Though to be fair, it's kind of hard for me to pin down what exactly it is I hate about what many consider to be Hideaki Anno's magnum opus. But after giving it some thought, I think much of my hate for the show stems mostly on the sudden shift of mood and drop in quality for the anime's later episodes.
The anime starts off to a good extent as a standard mecha anime with "enemy of the day" plot setup, though being seemingly more mundane in mood compared to many titles of the genre at that point trying to go for an epic-in-scale plot and the focus on Shinji's life beyond being an Eva pilot. The series does explore enough to his character where we can see his family situation is quite complicated and only worsens with his long-lost father forcing him into a situation that he's not mentally prepared to handle. So considering his earlier reluctance at being an Eva pilot and wanting to run away from the situation, I can't really blame him for wanting to do so. While still emotionally reserved in later episodes, I can at least buy this has more to do with the neglect he suffered from Gendo and wanting to try getting his father's acceptance, signs of growth coming from his character. Beyond Shinji, some episodes in the series do focus on other characters like the complicated relationship between Kaji, Ritsuko and Misato and the series at least drops hints earlier on that something shady is going on within NERV. However, many of the issues I do have with Eva seem to stem mostly from the later episodes of the series. Beyond whatever budgetary issues there were with the animation, I felt the show's shift to a more nihilistic tone was way too sudden considering the mundane mood it had created within its earlier episodes. The tone had the negative effect of making any character growth that Shinji and several other characters got in earlier episodes get flushed down the toilet just for the sake of Anno seemingly trying to add his philosophical ramblings to the series. This is especially apparent in the infamous final two episodes of the series where rather than resolve any dangling plot elements coming from NERV and SEELE's shady plans, it gets reduced to a psychological evaluation of several characters from the series. Sure, End of Eva would come along later on to resolve many of the dangling plot threads. But that too suffered in quality for me thanks to Anno's nihilist direction of the movie and ambiguous storytelling when it came to addressing its finale and some elements to the title's plot. In short, I'll give Eva credit in that it did help to reinvigorate interest in the mecha genre during the 1990s and had a significantly different tone to it compared to past offerings in the genre (compared to how I might have felt years earlier when I seen it). But in terms of quality, I can't necessarily consider the series to be among the greatest within the medium of anime thanks to the mentioned issues in plot quality and direction that came along with later episodes of the TV anime and End of Eva. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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This is one of the potentially valid criticisms that gets put forward but it has two flaws. Firstly, this criticism would be perfectly justified if we were in 1996. We’re in 2013, and End of Evangelion has been out for 16 years and has been available to Western audiences for at least 10. That is the real ending. We know that from the storyboards shown in the next episode previews in eps24-25. It wasn’t just some random thing Anno put together to piss off the fans. To talk about Evangelion in a way that appears to ignore that EoE exists (or pretends it’s an irrelevant add on) isn’t honest to me. That was a big problem I had with Hope Chapman’s mega review. Anyways. The second flaw with this criticism is that it assumes that ep25&26 are presenting some kind of all inclusive conclusion that brings to an end all of the psychological conflicts that exist in the show. It isn’t. It’s merely exploring a few aspects of the different characters experiences in instrumentality. In fact, the on screen writing even states this at the beginning of ep25.
It’s supposed to be unnatural. The entire cast is essentially engaged in a joint mystical experience. It’s supposed to be a departure from the previous mode of story telling.
When are you claiming this sudden shift actually occurred though? What specifically do you mean by nihilistic? |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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Yay. It is natural to be annoyed at something that gets more credit than it is due. Below is a post I did in June 2010 on EVA, the topic being "Lapses of Logic": ---------- I finally got around to watching Evangelion 1.11 on Blu Ray on a 55-inch screen. For something originally crafted in 1995 this is quite impressive from a visual standpoint. From a story, it has real head-scratchers in it: 1. Misato introduces Nerv as a "clandestine" organization. Yet it has its logo on every building, artifact, machine, food wrapper, and tattooed ass within a 500Km radius. Clandestine in what sense? 2. Misato at the snap of her fingers can commandeer the entire electrical grid of Japan, plus the tens of thousands of workers to reroute it through transformers that fill full square kilometers (all within 10 hours) to power a confiscated secret weapon from some lab that "owes her favors" yet she lives in a crappy mid-floor apartment on the outskirts and can't afford a housekeeper to keep the place up. Her personal car is damaged in combat but she still owes the payments on it. 3. OK, so through a weird quirk of physics and metaphysics you are forced to rely on two young teenagers to defend the total existence of the race. No problem there it is just the story premise. You command gigantic resources capable of building full underground cities and drive a formidable military machine, but cannot find any way to care for the two youngsters in any way that makes sense. Assuming you don't give a crap about the kids themselves wouldn't it be in your own self-interest to spend 0.0001% of your budget in seeing that they are in the slightest prepared to deal with what is coming their way? Shinji is neglected then thrown without any training into a fight where he has never even seen "the most advanced weapon ever devised by man" before yet he is supposed to pilot it. Rei lives in a shithole without any guidance. Even the Bush administration was not that stupid. 4. Although it looks really cool, for what purpose to the buildings travel up and down? It would be much cheaper and more defensible to have buildings above ground, then another set below ground. Japan has a long history of cities that can be rebuilt quickly so why isn't that used here. This thread is dedicated to those animes that are really good but have something fundamentally illogical about them, even in the terms of their own universe. Does anyone have any examples as egregious as those? |
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Snomaster1
 SubscriberPosts: 2805 |
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For me,my criticism of "Evangelion" was that it was too dark and gloomy for me. It felt too dark and sad for me. It's not the most hopeful show I've ever seen. I'd have liked it better if it were some hope or something good but it felt too depressing for me. I've mentioned this numerous times,even on my own "EVA" post.
I've never understood why this was so popular. To me,it was just one big gloomfest and I didn't really get into it all that much. Others might like it but I had some problems with it. I liked the more lighthearted manga like "NGE:Angelic Days" and "The Shinji Ikari Raising Project." But,that's one person's opinion. |
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BesuDesu
 Posts: 89 Location: Florida |
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I said I wouldn't do this... I said I wouldn't touch this thread with a 10 foot pole... But I suppose it "needs" to be addressed. One of the bigger nails on the coffin for the series for me was one huge, gaping moment in the series. That ending. In addition to being a horrific cop out (Really? Just gonna leave us without any resolution?) It's just... incorrect. Almost insultingly so. No, Shinji, you do not just suddenly gain the boatload of self confidence and loose your inadequacies just because "hur dur guys! Look at me! I learned to love myself! Even though, you know, no one or anything has really given me the justifiable means to! I just did it all o' my own!" No, EVA. Things don't work out that way.
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ZorgonXtreme
 Posts: 251 Location: Anchorage, AK |
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I always gave the ending a lot of leniency, especially knowing that (a) there's a movie to replace it and (b) knowing the terrible financial issues Gainax went through with the second half of that show.
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MadShadow42
 Posts: 56 |
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I think it's still a valid criticism considering how many Eva fans still consider the TV ending fantastic, or even prefer it. Heck, listen to the Revenge of the 90s podcast. We can't pretend that the TV ending doesn't exist anymore than we can pretend EoE doesn't exist. Yes, EoE was a better ending (albeit one that many people dislike more than the show itself) but I have some problems with that as well, I may or may not get back to you on that. Suffice it to say, those aren't my only problems with the show, it's just that the last few episodes (to me) made the show's shaky infrastructure up to that point glaringly obvious. By his own admission Anno didn't know how he wanted to end the show when he started it, and there are some definite inconsistencies between the early episodes and the later ones because of that.
One word: "congratulations." They really, really played it up as a conclusion, at the very least to Shinji's character arc, don't try to convince me they didn't. And if it really wasn't meant to be conclusive (as you claim) than it still fails as an ending for being, well, inconclusive. No ground to stand on here.
I know that it's "supposed to be" unnatural, my problem is that the writers had to resort to such a tactic in the first place. Gurren Laggan is "supposed to be" stupid, that doesn't make it good storytelling. What does such a storytelling device add to the story that couldn't be achieved through something more verisimilar (aside from being within the budget)? And then there's the observations themselves, which felt like a student giving answers without showing his work and having the gall to call it a "report". I have a knee-jerk reaction to such preachiness. If a story has to bring its depth to the surface, then by definition it is no longer depth. Last edited by MadShadow42 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:57 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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EricJ
 Posts: 876 |
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(Oh, wait: Somebody else does a "Whaddya folks, like, really HATE?" thread, and you won't touch it?) How hypocritical can you get?  )
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BesuDesu
Posts: 89 Location: Florida |
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Ehh... you're right
 . I was just kinda hesitant about contributing to this thread initially. It's like a madhouse in these kinds of things. Especially with something as subjective, broadly interpreted, and complex as EVA.
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Ambimunch
 Posts: 2012 |
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I think the show has lots of complex themes and deep religious and sexual symbolism that turns people off. The majority of people prefer simple anime with a "cool" main character that has inspirational friendship and "never give up" speeches in every episode. Shows like NGE require thought, analysis, background research and overall lots of re-play to understand the show. People simply get frustrated when they don't understand something and disregard the show as "bad" or crappy (when in reality its their lack of understanding thats at fault).
Plus the show has a cast of simi-annoying lead characters that could appear as unlikable. Also, don't forget that it lacks a main character wielding a sword whose length supposedly represents his ego and a female character with breasts big enough to generate their own gravitational field as "fanservice"....so yeah why would 85% of the community bother to watch that show? |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3886 Location: New York state. |
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By nihilistic, I mean that the series shifted gears to have the characters believe that life had no objective meaning, value or purpose; the plummeting starting well into the second half of the series starting with the crap that happened with spoiler[Toji]. This was in stark contrast to earlier episodes in the series where it seemed several characters like Shinji and Misato were trying to find meaning in their lives while dealing with circumstances beyond their control, in this case NERV's fight against the Angels, and were slowly coming to grips with their situation until Anno decided that the cast had to suffer setback after setback to force his point onto the audience to reduce the characters you once cared for into pathetic angsting messes. That's not engaging me to care for the characters or the series. It's making me feel like I want to beat up the director for trying to force his beliefs onto the audience. |
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Sleverin
 Posts: 153 |
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This is pretty much it. I was heavily intrigued with all the interesting ideas of using the power of divinity against itself, the 'NERV' center for the human race being constantly attacked by evil beings. The Lance of Longinus, the spear which stabbed Christ on the cross, used to keep Adam, the first Angel, paralyzed. And then it amounts to nothing, all of it doesn't even pan out to anything. If I was fourteen, then yeah, this series would have been amazing. The animation is fantastic and the story almost works together and then it doesn't. As an adult who studies collegiate level books on philosophy, this series is rather childish in its approach to the human condition. The dialogue makes it sounds beautifully poetic, as Japanese is wont to do, but its mostly empty. |
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