Forum - View topicREVIEW: Cross Ange: Rondo of Angel and Dragon Blu-Ray part 2
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Souther
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The ending implies the people of Mana have what it takes to survive, albeit in a harsh world. And they still have old technology like guns. The Dragons and the Norma don't owe them anything, considering they've been killing and enslaving them respectively for a long time, and I've no idea why you seem to be giving them more sympathy. What, because most didn't know? Because they're ignorant? Don't think it absolves them. They can fend for themselves. Ange and the rest simply freed themselves, they have no obligation to do anything else. The Norma are immune to the roars the Dragons use to control/disorientate people who use Mana. Actually, I was misremembering things, Embryo wanted them to collect the Villkiss for his world merge. Julio, being a racist and jealous of Ange, decided to kill them (there's another reason for Ange to lack sympathy for them). And having the Villkiss did make them a threat to a degree. I'm not sure what reasons you're talking about. Embryo being an arsehole is pretty relevant to things actually. You keep saying why didn't he do this or that, yet you forget he deliberately didn't revive a bunch of kids who got killed because he didn't care enough. There were a whole bunch of things he could've done, but he didn't because he's bad. That's all there is to it. I agree, Cross Ange is a pretty absurd story though and there's little use in overanalysing it. But there are things that're pretty clear cut. Last edited by Souther on Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18193 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I don't disagree here. Logic like that has never stopped situations akin to that from happening in the real world, however, and forced labor camps (which is what Arzenal essentially is) have very definitely been a reality in our world. Hence it's really not all that unrealistic even if its logic is shaky.
Then why did he bother to rescue Chris and Salia, if that was all the value they had?
When the Dragons first got to Arzenal's command room in episode 11, its roar affected Emma adversely but not the Norma. Likewise when Salamandinay used her roar to neutralize Embryo's control of Emma in a later episode, it didn't affect the Norma at all.
Norma means she had the potential to resist her. The song means that she, like him, can cross dimensional boundaries. The feisty is necessary because she presented a challenge. I won't dispute that he's at least a bit of a cardboard villain, though. Never said he wasn't. |
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NPC
 Posts: 56 |
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Arzenal is not a labor camp. This is a military facility without any significant supervision with soldiers forced to fight in a war for many years. Contact and alliance between them and enemy is a matter of time. Dragons already have Liza on this side and she knows enough about Arzenal. Heck, dragons can actually speak in dragon form (Vivian), they don't because it would end the war pretty much instantly. Anyways, the original point was that damage to Arzenal was last straw for Embryo. I just don't see how it is possible. Arzenal is a dumb idea from the start and it makes no sense in universe of this anime.
Embryo works in mysterious ways? Well, actually it is trivial. To create problem of "traitors" and all the related comedy and drama.
Yep, Emma was scared, said "bad dragon, now eat lead", lowered her weapon and started shooting. Not bad at all for untrained civilian. She destroyed command center in the process and was adversely affected by Jill's hit. So, nothing to see here.
Emma, untrained civilian, without armor, drunk most of the time, under remote control vs one and only Salamandine in her human form. It is very difficult to make any conclusions from it. Nothing was ever said, ability never was used in combat. By the way, it is interesting how they deal with Emma. She is the human supervisor, she knows everything about the operation and voluntarily participates in it. They actually care about her.
They don't. They really really don't. Guns were seen only around the palace and seem to be ritual pieces, much like M-14 and SKS. Police arresting first Norma is unarmed. Besides, its not like gun is the only thing you need to survive.
They didn't though. They literally had no idea about the war. So any punishment for them is meaningless. Killing billions to lift oppression from 20 people and release one dragon, no matter how you look at it it is a horrible crime.
Absolutely. They didn't do anything wrong. If they deserve death for ignorance, so does Ange for her first 16 years.
Not to those that we were discussing. |
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Souther
Posts: 602 |
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They're not going to die just because they no longer have Mana. The Dragons had their Earth completely destroyed and irradiated thanks to Embryo blowing up the Dracunium towers. They managed to pick themselves up. So Ange being a mass murderer is nonsense really. The people of Mana are in a far better position to rebuild. Btw, guns weren't in museums, they were used throughout the series by the people of Mana, like when Ange's mum gets shot.
Being racist to Norma, taking them away from their families, trying to hang Ange, beating them up and so on equals nothing wrong because the general folk (ignoring the higher-ups and the officers) didn't know about Arzenal? And Ange was made to survive in Arzenal and fight Dragons as punishment. There was nobody in her corner to say she did nothing wrong because she didn't know. So she's not going to extend that mercy to them. They owe them nothing, and they ended up saving them from being destroyed anyway, regardless how convenient you think it is. The Dragon's roar caused a bunch of people flying transporters to fire at each other and blow each other up during the episode Ange met Tusk. I'd say that's a significant issue for Mana users to deal with when hunting Dragons.... You were asking why Embryo doesn't do certain things like not use the Norma, produce Dracunium and so on. I answered, then you said it wasn't relevant. I mean, you're the one asking those questions lol, but ok. Anyway, I've said all I can say. Anything else would be repeating myself further. |
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NPC
Posts: 56 |
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I never said anything like that. They will die mostly from hunger. Also they will be killing each other to grab last pieces of food they can't produce anymore. Then they will start kill for other kind of food. Frankly listing all the reasons they will die from is pointless, result is what matters.
And I never said they were in museums. I said they were used by palace guards for ceremonial purposes. Population and police is unarmed, there is no reason for them to be armed. Anyway, even if every citizen had five M-16s, it would just make demise of civilization so much faster.
After population reduced from multiple billions to few thousands. Mass murder in other words.
She wanted to be, it is very obvious. If you don't understand it there is nothing more to discuss indeed.
Purely hypothetical situation. There is a secret government agency C in country A which performs iffy operations all over the world, affecting lives of millions. Small group of affected, lets call it B, got access to portable yet very powerful explosive devices and decided to end the oppression by blowing up few millions of citizens of A. The citizens are ignorant about activity of C but quite a few of them are fairly racist and they all support agency C with their taxes. You saying actions of B are justified? Well, I suppose you are just naive, not actively evil.
You are right, I didn't realize it. Still, conflict with dragons is over dragnium which can be produced locally. I suppose they could add something like "dragnium only works when it is inside alive dragon". Still, this is purely technical problem and Embryo is very good in this stuff.
And your answer is "Embryo is an arsehole". We were discussing if these actions made any sense in the universe of anime according to established facts of this universe. Your "input" was completely pointless for this discussion. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18193 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Not in a literal sense, no. But in a figurative sense it absolutely is. The Norma who are of suitable age aren't given a choice about whether or not they fight Dragons. They are given certain enticements (beyond just staying alive) to actually put effort into it, but they aren't allowed to "opt out." And why would the Dragons make any peaceful contact with the Norma? They're deadly enemies, after all, who have slaughtered innumerable of their kind. Remember, Salamandinay's henchwomen were all for killing Ange for that reason, and Salamandinay only gave her a chance because she was the pilot of Vilkiss and knew the song.
Sorry, you're wrong here. We heard Vivian's voice so that we would understand what she was trying to convey. There was never much indication of Ange understanding Vivian in dragon form in anything more than an intuitive sense, and no one else she encountered in dragon form in episode 12 seemed to understand her.
Except for Emma's eyes blanking out, which almost always implies more than just a fear reaction when shown in anime. And besides, counterpoints on this have been presented elsewhere.
It is interesting, isn't it? I got the sense that she was tolerated because she wasn't a threat to them and was regarded more as a fool. |
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NPC
Posts: 56 |
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I mean, there is huge difference between labor camp and forced participation in combat. It is inherently unstable and dangerous situation. Completely avoidable here. But this is nitpicking, not a plot hole or anything like that. The plot is mostly ok. Characters are not very believable and their reactions are often strange. But this is usual for anime, I think Japanese just somewhat different. Which is good. 
First of all, they are ridiculously nice and peaceful people. Second, they know what is going on (instability mentioned above). Liza is a head of palace guard, position which likely takes years to obtain. Liza is smart, resourceful, and in ideal position to get information. Even Tusk was able to bug meeting of top bosses with Embryo, security is lax. Liza even opened one singular all by herself. She also can use mana which is a bit strange and capable of establishing two-way audio/video contact with priestess which is almost unbelievable. Third, dragons are smart and they are on the losing side. They are not fighting a war, they are being harvested. Only humans control singulars, five of their paramails can deal with full on dragon invasion, Vilkiss, Slamandine's advanced and two usual paramails. Considering this conflict business as usual for decades (centuries?) is pretty much criminal.
So, they should be interested in stopping it, right?
There was some animosity but dragons didn't kill them on the spot. They had Vivian. As a source of vital information they are extremely valuable regardless of Vilkiss. Nah, I don't think they ever were in real danger. Even with Ange being Ange there. Really, their tolerance is unbelievable.
Ah, right. It was dragon's sound with Vivian voice on top. Well, there are options of turning into human form, using a tape recorder, running away, turning back into singular, making peace signs in the air, humming a song, using Morse code. Pretty much anything else then what they do, pretend to be wild vicious animals.
Yep, I already agreed that I missed it. Examples that you gave didn't look very convincing to me but there is about 2 second segment in episode 5 mentioned by Souther. And later Liza just says it explicitly on submarine. Very nice method of giving information about universe, much more natural than infodumps. I just didn't get used to it yet.
Well, as far as I remember she never was intentionally cruel to Normas. She was basically a coworker/observer without any real power. Her ability to enforce anything is zero. She was brainwashed as all humans and largely got over it. Another more extreme example is Tomoko. These are normal people with tiny quirk caused by indoctrination, not some soulless monsters. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5831 Location: Virginia, United States |
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It is a labor camp. The Norma are taken from their homes and families, and then are imprisoned on an isolated island in the middle of nowhere. Then they are forced to participate in battles against their master's enemies. There are no such thing as human rights on the island, and you can literally be sent to your death if you don't participate fully in your forced training and the battles against the dragons.
I haven't watched the second half of Cross Ange, but if Ange destroyed the source of power that runs Mana's civilization, then yes, she is guilty of genocide. What do you think is going to happen if our electrical grid ever goes down hard. Rioting for food first, then fighting tooth and nail for the last remaining stocks of food, and then the rise of the cannibals. Humans with guns, hunting those without to eat them. The problem is not that people will be hoarding food, but that food production will drastically fall, because it can no longer be maintained at current levels. The police, military, and workers that maintain society all have families, so when hell comes in a hand basket they will be with their families and not working. Survival take priority. Really any sequel to Cross Ange should be called Cross Ange: Rise of the Cannibal Clans. Don't know where Ange and the other Norma ended up yet, but Mana is going to be hellish for quite some time. Maybe the Dragon people will take them in, if not they can look forward to dying out slowly by themselves since they do not have enough population to start a new society. Justified revenge is all well and good, but unless you are going to put a gun to your head afterwards, the question to be asked, is what comes after, and is it something you want. |
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Souther
Posts: 602 |
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They've been making shipments of various products and tools to Arzenal over the years. They have to provide fuel for the Para-mails the Norma use to fight Dragons. They have to had set up electricity there because the Norma can't use Mana, so they have knowledge of that. They have access to guns (even regular people it seems because a regular person tried to shoot Ange during the finale) and flamethrowers. They have to provide the Norma with machinery that doesn't run on Mana. The people of Mana clearly have access to old technology they can use. Obviously they're not in a good spot, but you guys are acting as if they're helpless and Ange is a bad dude for not wanting to help the society that treated her badly.
There is no logical sense, because it's part of Embryo's character. His society mostly reflects his terribleness and his cynicism. His grandmaster plan was to gather a bunch of girls and make babies with them to create a better race after the Mana society didn't work out. But if you wanna go over the logistics over an intentionally silly villain in an intentionally silly series, sure. The show barely explains anything about Dracunium. Maybe he could make it, maybe he couldn't. Even if the Dragons wanted to talk to them beforehand, the Norma were forced to kill Dragons for survival. It wasn't until Ange came along that they were able to be in a position to fight back properly because of the abilities of her Villkiss. |
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NPC
Posts: 56 |
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You probably should avoid this thread. Covering everything under spoiler tags seems to be an overkill. And second part is good.
Lets see. Labor camp. People live in barracks and don't own anything, even their clothes. They can be killed for disobedience or even without reason. There are no consequences for such kill. System is enforced with owerwhelming firepower which is always ready for immediate effective retaliation. System is stable and can exist as long as guards on towers have enough bullets. Arzenal. Largely independent military unit under immediate Norma control. Oversight is inefficient and powerless (Emma). Zero reasons to be loyal to humans and lots of reasons to be not loyal. Arbitrary punishment is impossible. E.g. if Zola kills Chris - next day she doesn't return from the mission. Feel the difference. The moment Arzenal comes under external pressure it rebels.
They do have rights. Not full set (show me military force at war with full set) but ability of officers to abuse soldiers is severely limited. They are all walking corpses, Zola is the only active pilot over 20 and they daily get their hands on powerful weapon. One more point - does conception of human rights even exist in this world? It took centuries to develop on Earth. Citizens have all they need, the only opressed tiny element of society is Normas under single "act". No money. All the huge legal framework that regulates property, production and wealth distribution is unnecessary. There are no lawyers in paradise. There is "emperor family" but it is largely nominal. People still do "work". Well, this part of the story just was out of focus.
Sorry, nothing to discuss then. |
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