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INTEREST: Black Butler Creator Comments on Works With Homosexual Love

It seems when you have 2 same-sex characters that are really close, which is often brotherly, it is hard not for the "gay vibe" to appear. I think one of the worst fujoshi circles I've seen is Alphonse/Edward. They are freaking brothers!

shiranehito wrote:

A lot of characters in shounen genre series are mostly engaged in bromance and pure friendship, and yet each episode/chapter, a lot of [Americans] translate it at something else, something romance and gay in their head.

Keep in mind anime is a 'nerd' hobby. A lot of those people are probably socially ostrisized so they project on fictional characters... they think two people hugging or being friendly is a sign of non-platonic romance.
-Stuart Smith

Sebastian x Ciel isn't problematic because it's two guys. It's problematic because it's pedophilia.

It's weird to me that that isn't the discussion at hand.

Ciel is a child.. There shouldn't be a romance between him and Sebastian in the 1st place..

Quote:

It's weird how male couples are immediately labelled as "for fujoshi" and also weird how people will deny them.

Amen. I hope more creators take up this line of reasoning and push prominent queer characters out of the various genre closets into which they tend to get funneled. I totally appreciate the argument for subtext which generally makes for stronger storytelling, but it also kind of sucks when heterosexual romance isn't confined to that kind of "mature" narrative and therefore feels more prominent by comparison. I'm sure a lot of kids (and adults!) out there would feel affirmed by non-stereotyped, upfront, unapologetic representation of queer gender and romance themes as part of their typical media consumption.

I feel like since YOI thisnshipping thing has gotten a million times worse. And why must everyone assume that any time two same-sex characters interacts it has to be gay?? Can we stop with all that nonsense?? This is what annoys me. Nowadays it's either a character HAS to be gay or it's not good. Like, seriously?? It annoys me so much because now everyone js like, "oh, are they gay?? It"ll be great to see a non fetish-like relationship". That pisses me off so much. Like stop pushing your ideals onto characters who aren't like that!! Not every character has to be gay!! I have nothing against gay characters because i love yaoi and all, but people need to control themselves.

kiminobokuwa wrote:

I feel like since YOI thisnshipping thing has gotten a million times worse. And why must everyone assume that any time two same-sex characters interacts it has to be gay?? Can we stop with all that nonsense?? This is what annoys me. Nowadays it's either a character HAS to be gay or it's not good. Like, seriously?? It annoys me so much because now everyone js like, "oh, are they gay?? It"ll be great to see a non fetish-like relationship". That pisses me off so much. Like stop pushing your ideals onto characters who aren't like that!! Not every character has to be gay!! I have nothing against gay characters because i love yaoi and all, but people need to control themselves.

But my question to you and others like you is: why are you even bothered by how other people choose to enjoy their media? Look, there's a whole ton of ships I don't support or don't see or even understand, but if folks want to ship them, it's no skin off my back. I'll just enjoy the series my own way. I do agree that fans cross the line when they threaten the creators for not fulfilling their wishes about their ships, but when it's just harmless shipping where they're commenting or posting stuff, guess what I do? I just skip over the posts. No big deal. Why even get angry about it. It's like the anti posts I see...I think it's sad that people like to waste their time hating on people loving stuff, but instead of attacking them or getting all worked up about it, I just ignore them.

And maybe why fans have to constantly go the route of "are they gay" etc is because there IS a drought of healthy gay characters/couples in anime/manga. It's indicative of a bigger problem of the general animanga genre. If more mainstream series proudly presented interesting, dynamic gay characters and couples (like Yuri on Ice did), maybe fans who are thirsting for that type of representation won't need to scrape the bottom of the barrel for things that aren't really there.

That still doesn't really excuse their behavior. And I don't mind that people fantasize about yaoi relationships or whatever. It's just that there is no excuse to harass others and force pairs onto series and claim "well, it's harmless". It's really not. And in my opinion it got extremely worse when YOI aired. Now tons of people are forcing their ideals onto creators and threatening them and it's getting really out of hand. I know there is a line when it comes to manga/anime content and real life. However, not everyone is up for yaoi relationships being shoved down their throats. You can't force a dramatic change in the industry. Not everyone wants yaoi in their series and some people have to respect that. (I don't mean this is a mean way or anything, i'm just trying to explain my pov).

kiminobokuwa wrote:

stuff

Kiminobokuwa-san, how is yaoi being shoved down your throat? I really don't even understand what you're saying in that aspect. No one can force you to ship or like something you don't. And I've already said I do agree fans cross the line when they threaten the creators, but then again many fans in general tend to cross the line about certain things. And where is all the yaoi in all the series that you're seeing? Characters that have been straight are STILL straight. Just because folks fantasize about it or creators queerbait, doesn't mean any actual change has come about that will alter how the industry is run. I honestly don't see a big change occurring in the industry. Yuri on Ice could very well be just a flash in the pan. I mean, please school me if I'm wrong, but are there actually undoubtedly gay characters and couples shown in a positive light who are actually the main characters in any of the new series coming out or any long-running series? From what I've seen, most of it has just been empty queer-baiting with no intention of following through, so how HAS the industry been forced to change in ANY way? Don't worry, I think you can continue to enjoy your series without any of the icky gay stuff you're so against. I also think you're overestimating the power of yaoi fans, my friend.

What did I say wrong?? I'm not against yaoi stuff. You're taking my post and twisting it. I meant that nowadays you can't watch a series without someone saying "omg!! Are they a gay couple?? I bet they are, the author doesn't want to admit it.". I'm sure you probably never seen it, but it still happens. Some people try to force their logic down others throats. You're doing it right now actually in a way. I never said I was against yaoi yet you assume because I said "they are shoving the yaoi logic down our throat" that means i'm homophobic. That is ENTIRELY false. And you're not helping the cause by saying that about me. The industry has been forced to change somehow because more and more fans of shows are beating the point over people's head that there should be more yaoi couples in shows where there isn't a need for it or whatever. And i'm not overestimating it. Have you seen YOI fans?? Most of them are toxic, well the ones i've come across are anyways. I'm not against yaoi in any way possible, it just tends to get annoying when it's "yaoi this" or "yaoi that". I said it's just from my Point of view (pov). No need to say i'm against that stuff. That was very harsh and irrational of you to assume about me.

Because honestly, I could say the same about hetero romances being forced upon us in stories/characters even when they don't necessary fit. I've seen people ship straight pairings that to me absolutely make not one lick of sense too so I would say shipping is sometimes unreasonable regardless of the sexes involved. I guess where homophobia is sometimes inferred is because folks tend to attack potential yaoi couplings, whether they make sense or not, rather than hetero couplings, even when they are guilty of the same failings.

PsychoPearl wrote:

Ciel is a child.. There shouldn't be a romance between him and Sebastian in the 1st place..

Ciel is a character who doesn't exist. No offense, but if you're unable to understand the difference between imaginary 2-D characters and real life people, the problem is not with the people who created the fictional characters or the people who are able to separate reality from fiction, the problem is with YOU. With all due respect, perhaps it's time to take a break from watching cartoons as it's getting too real for you.

Fictional characters can't be positive representations of queer relationships when the relationships are good, but imaginary when their relationships crosses the line and becomes problematic and negative.

It's like saying that people shouldn't be upset at "rape=love" tropes in yaoi while also saying that fans should be glad for the gay representation in rapey yaoi.

I can actually see both points:

- People should be able to ship whomever they want without someone being a jerk about it. I mean that's the fun of fandom right? People are gonna ship whomever they want regardless.

-Fans should keep in mind when it comes to 'THERE SHOULD BE YAOI IN EVERYTHING!' that Japan has a different view on LGBT then the West/US does. And not everyone is going to want yaoi/yuri shoved into their faces.

And I'm sorry but shipping when one party is a minor? I find it problematic. Yes, I know it's fiction, but I still find it a bit problematic. In this case though, since this is referring to Black Butler, I always found Ciel/Seb to be a combo of father/son/pet/master but whatever...


And people think YOI is straight? spoiler[I mean it's spelled out midway that both MCs have romantic feelings toward each other. Part of the reason why I enjoyed YOI is the fact that it wasn't a conventional romance]

The elephant in the room is the fact the vast majority of people in the world are straight. If 99% of a culture are not gay, it's not exactly a huge leap in logic to pair up a harem MC with one of the girls like pairing him up with his male buddy would. You can't really 'force' heterosexual relationships in anime any more than you can say anime 'forces' Japanese characters on us. It's simply a reflection of the culture it was made in.