Forum - View topicAnime Fansub documentary
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6868 Location: Kazune City |
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As I commented on one of the segments, I'm a little disappointed that the examples went straight from the oldschool VHS-era fansubs that otaking idolizes to the post-2003 modern era of digital fansubs. From what I've been able to see, a lot of the 1999-2002 early digital fansubs actually were simpler, with more localization, more readable (even yellow) fonts, and fewer flashy effects. Of course, the actual translations were much worse, and the A/V quality was terrible, so their simplicity may have been caused more by technical limits than anything else. As was mentioned earlier, it's a bit biased for a documentary, because there are plenty of fansubs out there that use natural English, don't leave everything they possibly can in Japanese, use Western name order, use limted/tasteful group credits, and don't go overboard on karaoke. For example, the only complete fansub version of Higurashi no Naku koro ni Kai: Nothing hardcoded into the video, it's 100% softsubbed. No group name or logo at title. No fansub staff credits (but does translate some of the production staff). Western name order. Uses honorific suffixes, but translates most titles and sibling terms Flowing, natural English - I'm picky about this, and I can't recall any facepalm-worthy over-literal sections. No random words left in Japanese, aside from a few words like Watanagashi and Oyashiro-sama, which are arguably series-specific proper names. Some positioned text and color/fade effects, but quite a few signs do simply use the "Note at the top" method. No useless "translation trivia" notes; the only notes I recall were a few parentheticals for characters with numbers in their names. I guess that's part of the made-up statistical 10% that doesn't line up with the examples. |
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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Yes, this is something that caught my eye as well. Viz may have translated shinigami, but they left terms like gigai and reiatsu in Japanese. In the dub! These are but a few, But there are many others, as it seems the Viz dub leaves much of the Japanese terms as is. Personally I feel that it is a bit frustrating, going from week to week, sometimes months before we hear certain Japanese terms again, then trying to remember what it means. For instance, in the [as] broadcast they are talking about gigai's again, it has been a while since they have, and it took me a while before I even remembered what the hell they were talking about. Imagine my shame, I felt like an out of a the loop dweeb even asking about it in the Bleach thread(which I didn't). And I watch the show every week! Luckily I figured it out after a couple episodes what they were talking about. But I doubt that such a problem would have come up if it was in English. I don't know why Viz choose this way of doing things, but I figure it was one of two reasons. They couldn't come up with better terms that wouldn't be long winded, and therefore throw off the lips flaps into a constant mess. Or, they were pandering to the fansub viewing masses, in an effort to show that they can translate just as bad as many fansubbers do. If it was the first then I don't think they were putting all of their creative effort behind it. If it is the second I doubt the pandering worked, but at this stage in the life of the industry, can you really blame them for trying?
I agree with you it was biased, no doubt about that. But come on! Some of the most heralded "documentaries" in recent memory are nothing more than opinion pieces. Which have been laid out in such a way as to ignore certain facts and allow the audience to never even realize they existed. That in turn gives ample room for the producer to give his/her unfettered opinion poised as fact and not much else. If we were to go by modern standards then this most certainly would be considered a documentary. You make some good points, and I am not willing to say here that all modern fansubs are horrible. Although I think I would be able to say most are in a clearly by the numbers way. But he makes some good points as well. The most important, as you can probably figure out by my talking about Bleach, is that translation should be a seamless transfer from one language to another. And that you can get the same meaning, without being overly literal, which allows for smooth speech in the manner that real people talk. And in some cases you can lose the original meaning by being overly literal. Which is the exact opposite effect of what a translation does. I think he goes over this quite well in a manner that, while might not be fair to support his titular point, certainly makes that singular one very clear. He made some other good points, but that was the one I liked most, plus I don't want to write an essay. I think you and I can agree that it would have served him well if he had included some good examples of well-made modern fansubs. If for nothing else, to at least show us in the know, that he doesn't have horse-blinders on. I think he still could have made an effective argument of the downfall of fansubs, even with the recognition of a few quality outfits. Another thing I think we can both agree with is that it highlights some of the ridiculousness that we in the anime community have to deal with, and while many people may like it, it's not really a good thing that they do. |
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TheTheory
 Posts: 1029 Location: Central PA |
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Translation is a tricky thing. There is no one right way to do it. The Bible industry flourishes because some people want a word-for-word translation and some people want a thought-for-thought translation. Word-for-words can be harder to read (both in Bibles and in fansub animes) because it won't flow as naturally. With a thought-for-thought translation you run the danger of having the translator put too much of their personal biases and opinions in there. Most translations end up being in the middle on a continuum, trying to find the right balance of readability and accuracy. Which is right depends entirely on the reader.
Unfortunately, with fansubbing, not every anime is going to get multiple groups subbing from multiple translation ideologies so that viewers can find the one that works best for them. |
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Zoe
 Posts: 898 Location: Austin |
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He makes some good points, but I don't hold fansub (or even scanlation) translations to the same standards as professional ones.
If somebody is seeking out the fan translations of something, that says to me they have enough interest to learn about things like honorifics and certain keywords. For the name order thing, it's not as if the Japanese say "Pitt Brad" or "Spears Britney." Does it really hurt to be a little more cultured on other countries' naming conventions? As for translating on-screen text, unless it makes the art too cluttered rendering it unreadable (which does happen), I would rather see the translation next to the text because that's where my eyes would go anyway. Karaoke has to go though. It's especially hilarious when they don't know the actual lyrics and try to make up the Japanese AND the translation. Last edited by Zoe on Fri May 30, 2008 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Porcupine
 Posts: 1033 |
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Zalis yeah I think you are right about the karaoke thing. Oh well I guess. I can survive that, it's tiny.
As you said there are certainly at least a few modern subtitling groups that do everything well without the egotistical junk. I dunno what the percentage is though as I still haven't downloaded a tremendous amount of fansubs. Doesn't seem too high to me though, but I don't really obsess about that anyway. I can pretty much survive most things other people complain about. I don't care how a show is translated, although I am capable of noticing all the issues they aren't professionals so I don't expect anything unreasonable. Pretty much the only thing I really care about is video quality but most other people care more about the translations. I can pretty much deal with any inserted egotistical garbage too, although the most extreme cases do bother me. I am talking about when they start to write random things on the screen completely unrelated to what is going on, such as "Woot! Woot! We are the best0rZ!" or whatever. I haven't encountered too many fansubs that are that out there but I've gotten some. |
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Spotlesseden
Posts: 3514 Location: earth |
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he makes alot of good points like put the fansub group name on the anime and make it as big as the anime title; those pop up translation notes are bad and i don't like the translation next/over store name, or school name.
But the professionals are start borrow something from fansub group like leave san, sensei in the traslation. He keep using old anime translation for examples, but the new one borrow alot of ideas from fansub groups. Even games like Persona 3. for some reason i like the new disappear karaoke style better Again, he uses some bad examples. |
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sailorspazz
 Posts: 195 Location: Portland, OR |
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I agree with a lot of the points that the creator brings up in his documentary, though I did have to chuckle a bit when he brought up things like Bleach fansubs using terms like "zanpakutou", when even the English dub uses them....not saying that dubs are correct to be using more Japanese terms, but he kept saying that professional companies don't do those sorts of things, when obviously they do sometimes, though not to the extreme extent of fansubs ("nakama"? Does that really lose so much meaning if you actually translate it to "friend" or "ally"?)
One thing he brought up that I totally agree with is the way fansubbers superimpose their staff credits over the actual anime staff credits. I'd rather they translate the names, rather than plastering "Timing: VashNoMiko72" over the top of the director's name 
And the honorifics issue....I know this is highly debatable, but I really don't think they're needed in subtitling. Why? Well, if you're listening to the Japanese, you can hear what the characters call each other. So people who care about such things can listen for them, and people who don't know what they mean or don't care won't have to be bothered by them. He brings up a point that I've always believed, in that there are plenty of other words in Japanese that don't have specialized English equivalents, like all of the ways to say "I" or "me" (watashi/boku/ore/etc....), so if they're going to keep the honorifics in English, why not keep all those other words, too? Hell, let's just throw "desu" at the end of the sentences of a character who's speaking politely (wasn't there a fansub out there that actually did that?) The fact is, people who are genuinely interested in learning Japanese can find ways to do it. Classes, books, whatever. But fansubs are not the place to teach people random bits of Japanese that are probably going to be useless in most real life situations. That's why we have fangirls running around screaming, "watashi wa chibi kawaii baka neko tenshi desuuuuu~~~!" I also thought his examples using live action movies with crazy fonts and excessive notes all over them were pretty funny 
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4584 |
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In the case of Bleach, I believe Tite Kubo actually requested that the specific term "soul reaper" be used to translate "shinigami" in the English version. As for the other terms that the show leaves untranslated, I think a lot of that is due to the fact that most of them are used as technical terms for specific objects within the show's universe, and thus can't be translated without sounding incredibly awkward. I mean, how can you really translate a word like "gigai"? "Artificial body"? And would "zanpakuto" become "spirit sword"? It'd be the same thing as referring to a keyboard as a "textual input device." There really isn't any way to do it without sounding stupid, so it works best to keep the Japanese words as technical terms.
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BellosTheMighty
 Posts: 767 |
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One important point with that is that they explain what those terms mean in the course of the show, during some of the earlier episodes at least. Also, there might be some debate over what's best due to the fact that these are nouns. For example, "Gladiator", from the latin "Gladius", meaning "Sword", literally translates to "Sword-wielder". But you can't accurately call a Gladiator a sword-wielder, since soldiers etc. use swords as well, while Gladiator defines a certain profession quite specifically. So, call a Gladiator a Gladiator. |
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Zoe
Posts: 898 Location: Austin |
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It also helps that Bleach obviously takes place in Japan and concerns Japanese mythology. Now if it were in a more Western setting, like Soul Eater which uses the Western concept of Grim Reapers, then it wouldn't make much sense to retain all the Japanese.
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HyugaHinata
 Posts: 3505 |
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I strongly disagree with him about honourifics (the Fruits Basket, Kodocha, Somedays Dreamers, FMA and Negima DVDs all kept the honourifics in there), but I strongly agree that leaving "nakama" in Japanese is just silly. In One Piece and Naruto, it translates smoothly as "comrade." There's no need for laziness there.
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Zalis116
Moderator
Posts: 6868 Location: Kazune City |
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An interesting bit of "blast from the past" translations: In the SNES game Soul Blazer (1992), you had access to 8 swords. Sword of Life, Psycho Sword, Critical Sword, Lucky Blade, Zantetsuken, Recovery Sword, Spirit Sword, and Soul Blade. The Spirit Sword allowed you to damage ghosts, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the original Japanese for that was Zanpakutou. The Zantetsuken allowed you to damage metallic monsters, and I always wondered why it had some weird name when everything else was *Sword or *Blade. Sure enough, it means "metal-cutting sword," and I guess they couldn't fit a workable translation into the space they had. I can't think of any other reason why they translated one name and not the other. |
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sailorspazz
Posts: 195 Location: Portland, OR |
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Those are all Funimation titles, right? Their translators tend to leave honorifics in, but most professional companies don't. I already gave my thoughts on leaving in honorifics earlier, but I have to say that in a series like Full Metal Alchemist that isn't set in Japan, it really doesn't make sense to leave in honorifics, because the characters are living in a culture where such terms wouldn't exist. I understand that the Japanese will probably use them regardless of the setting, but it's weird to carry those honorifics to the English version when they technically shouldn't be there in the first place. |
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HyugaHinata
Posts: 3505 |
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Yeah, that makes sense, but some groups really enjoy keeping honourifics in. When I translated Daddy Long Legs for c1, I used Western honourifics and they asked me to change it back to the original Japanese. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I have to admit something; I thought the narrator's accent was really cool.
He did bring up plenty of good points: Huge logos (should be easy to spot, but not larger than the main title). Inserting their own credits more prominently than the staff credits (before the director? Are you kidding me?). Karaoke that was difficult or impossible to sing to (see next for partial reason, also when it vanishes too soon). Atrocious fonts and colours (garish colours, slanty fonts, font size too large or small). Under-translating (leaving too many terms untranslated, hurting my brain). Stilted sentence structure (grammar). Unnatural lines (as in, who says that?). Inserting notes of ridiculous length and size (and don't forget the frequency as well). Spoiling the Anime (explaining things/relationships which aren't to be revealed until later). Screen clutter (too much going on at once). Using honourifics (not really needed, and the obscure ones can get annoying). Inserting signs (see paragraph below). Think I got most of them. Now, the last one I disagree with, actually. The narrator himself said that I should receive the same experience as the original Japanese audience. And yet, the hypocritical jerk of the narrator will refuse to allow me that, because to put signs in will ruin the work of "art". Well, to me Anime is story telling and entertainment. I cannot understand the story, and I cannot be entertained, if I have no idea as to what is going on. That is why I strongly disagree with the assertion that no signs should be put in. What am I supposed to do, look at an accompanying text file which will say something like "And at 5m 34s, the third gravestone on the left says blah blah blah"? What the hell? A worthwhile watch, if only for the many clips I got to see. He had so many good points, it's a shame he had to go damage his credibility with that stupid sign argument. Besides, what was with those experts he quoted? Why did they all seem to come from 1978???? |
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