Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Female Crossdressers in Media
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Eruanna
 Posts: 451 Location: Canada |
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This was a very interesting read and a nice discussion.
The only part that irked me was when everyone was saying "Oh yeah I totally dont buy into that" in referance to the school of thought.. marianism was it called? I mean, its not really the writers fault, since I dont expect them to say they agree with something that they dont, but I think this school of thought oughted to have been givin more of a chance. The thing is that I am squarly not a feminist. And the reason for this I will explain (I am female by the way) I do very strongly belive in gender equality, but not gender ambiguity. I think that they were right at the begining of the discussion in making the point that its odd that a girl would have to dress as a man to gain equality. Things that are considered to be "manly" traits are generaly (incorrectly) thought of to be superior to things that are considered as "feminine" traits. For example, wearing a skirt. I cant tell you how many girls hate the very idea. I wear skirts all the time, and I have had feminists tell me that "wearing such girlish clothing is doing a disfavour to my entire gender and that I should dress more modern" This is ludicrous! Why on earth is wearing a skirt considered "lesser" then wearing pants? If genders are truely equal, then skirts and pants, should then also be equal. We live in a society that nowadays sneers at women who want to be stay at home mothers, and not career girls. But why? Im not saying its right for every girl, but if a girl wants to, why is doing something that is traditionally a "womans role" be less worthy then something that is traditionally a "mans role"? Arent the "womens roles" just as valid? In short, why should I have to become a man to be equal? I like being feminine, I like wearing dresses and having long flowing hair and I like to feel pretty and while I do want a career, if I didn't I think that would be okay too. Because being "feminine" is JUST as valid as being "masculine". I feel that feminism today seems to inadvertantly teach that we have to become more like guys in order to be equal which, to me, seems a bit opposite the whole point. As for ambiguity, I belive that our strengths come in our differences. I am strongly attracted to masculinity. Muscles on guys?? Oh my, hot. I like a strong male, the picture of an Alpha, its very appealing to me. But the reason its appealing to me is because is different from what I am. The rugged manliness is in contrast to my soft feminimity, and I wouldnt want it any other way. And really, why should we all be exactly the same?? I belive that the differenaces between genders (and we DO have differences, dont kid yourself!) are beautifull and what makes us strong as we come together! So I find it a bit offensive, to imply that a woman must crossdress in order to rise up as an equal. All of these strong women being portrayed as the saviors of feminism.... they never touch on the beauty and strength of actually being female! Its kind of a "Men have what we want lets take it" kind of attitude instead of actually looking into what makes both genders valid. |
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maaya
Posts: 976 |
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true, safety and strength is another issue (depending on where you life, I think in Japan it's not that much of an issue for women). By nature women are weaker than men, because they have less muscles. Of course there are some women that are stronger than certain men, but your average girl is weaker than your average guy. As a girl you rely on a guy to protect you, while a guy protects himself ^^;; So girls who want to be independant and protect themselves, dream of being a guy...?
Eruanna: So true. That reminds me of the Honey & Clover review postet on ANN, where Hagu was criticized for being shy (= submissive). If a girl is polite or shy, she will be criticized by the "feminists", because she makes herself subordinate to men because she behaves like something considered "typically female". Since what is considered typically female is of course an evil stereotype created by men who want oppress women. Eruanna, I think many of the feminists that criticize you for liking to dress and be "female", are actually part of those women who answered "I want to be reborn as a guy" in the survey. At least to me there seems to be some (or quite a lot) of jealousy as well. Personally if I ever have children I think I would prefer to stay at home and be with them while they grow up. Some men also think of that as being a woman's privilege ... because isn't it great to be with your children and raise them instead of going to work and never seeing your family? But of course, a man who says this will be accused of being a macho and wanting to imprison his wife at home etc. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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I get the impression that, yes, "trap" fans are generally male. |
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Rika-chama
 Posts: 87 |
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Glad to see some transgendered issues brought up in this issue. The boundaries of gender have always interested me considering I'm so active within the transgender community I have come to learn that gender is more than just 'male' and 'female'
Eruanna I agree with most of what you say. To me feminism isn't about how women shouldn't stay at home and be mothers but instead go into the workforce but more about the choice women now have about what they want to do with their life. And while the differences between the genders should be celebrated we must remember that not everyone will follow these "rules" such as the girls mentioned in this article. About girls wanting to be reborn as guys I think this is because of how society used to treat women. Now that the genders are pretty much equal that statistic should go down. Of course there will be women who want to be men but these people are actually transsexual men and don't fit into the catagory of women wanting to be men just for the societal benefits. |
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Cloe
Moderator
 Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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I think you may be misconstruing the definition of "feminism" a little, though. Feminism by definition is a belief in the right of women to have the same opportunities that men do. People who sneer at women who want to be moms or prefer to stay at home aren't really feminists so much as massive douches. In a perfect world, a woman shouldn't feel pressure to stay at home or become a career person. That's what I believe, as a feminist. Similarly, my problem with the skirts in Japanese school uniforms isn't that I hate skirts, it's that there's no other choice. It's like this pre-classification: Girls in skirts, boys in pants. If the girls got to wear skirts by choice, I have no problem with it. I'm quite fond of dresses, myself. |
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Eruanna
Posts: 451 Location: Canada |
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Now that is a very interesting point in and of itself. If we look at the traditional gender roles for example, a woman would stay at home and look after the children and take care of the house; the man would be off hunting, going to war to protect his familey, bringing in the money, ect. Now while I do agree that not all women should be forced into this set up, I dont belive there is anything wrong with it either. Whats wrong with a partnership, a trade off? "Ill do this part of the job and you can do that part of the job" Personally I find it a very appealing idea to have a man who could, and would, protect me. There are roles of responsibility, and there are roles of priviledge. Being protected is a priviledge, being the protector is a responsibility. And I belive that there is honor in both of those roles. To take that a little farther now, (And here I really need to emphasis that I am not saying that all women should be like this) why is a more submissive role inferior to a more dominant role? Truely to serve it takes great humility and peace of mind on the part of the servant. A mental strength if you will. Many religions teach that to be humble, to serve and be submissive, carries much more honor then to be the one who is being served. Thus, a submissive woman should be viewed as the equal of a non submissive woman. |
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Cait
 Posts: 503 |
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Interesting article. I've personally found it to be quite difficult as a woman in a "man's" world, particularly because I work in what is generally considered a male dominated occupation: carpentry. I dress "masculine" at work because it is very hard to be taken seriously, even in a progressive society, when you perform a job typically held by men. Already you are forced to be better than your collegues in order to be treated equally and any interest or display of "femininity" in that type of workplace is often resented by the men who feel like their "space" is being violated. Playng down the girly parts and being treated "like one of the guys" is often still the only way women in certain occupations can stay even with the men they work with.
To be honest, though, I was always what would be considered a "tomboy." I liked sports and I hated playing with dolls growing up. The truth is, though, that I just want to be treated without consideration to my gender. I personally feel that gender is only important as it relate to romantic relationships, and everything outside of that should be held separately. That's why I enjoy series like Kino's Journey and Hana Kimi, where the characters "cross-dress," but not because they are trying to find "acceptance." Kino wears masculine clothes because they are more gender neutral and utilitarian. She doesn't want to be treated as either gender, young or old, only be seen as a "traveller." As for Mizuki, she only dressed as a boy because she wanted to go to this particular school (and yes, as it would turn out she fell in love with the guy who was the reason she wanted to attend, but that came later). Being an athlete and an "American" it was easier(?) for the mangaka to justify her "masculine" personality traits and make her more passable in the school. Her femininity is repressed, not because she wants to be treated "equally," but because she will be expelled if she is found out (an issue that brings up quite different questions about why single gender schools exist at all, actually). And then consider the other side, with series like Princess Princess, where the most feminine looking boys are forced to dress as girls in an all boys school. They aren't choosing that lifestyle, but they are being forced to live it and deal with learning about the "other side." It reminds me of an old Ellen Barkin movie from the early '90s, called Switch (not to be confused with the Naked Ape manga of th same name), about this womanizing man who is punished by being turned into a woman (after he's murdered by the women he's hurt). He has to deal with all the things he used to do to women being done to him. It was an incredibly progressive film (even by today's standards), because the story isn't about how he "learns his lesson" and then goes back to being a manspoiler[ in fact, he never goes back to being one at all, and instead gets knocked up by his former best friend and dies in child-birth]. The story is about what this guy has to do to get into heaven: ie, find a woman who can love him for himself. It has nothing to do with "rising above" gender roles, but about how the perceived differences affect the way people treat each other, and then turning that on its head. [/spoiler] |
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maichips
 Posts: 96 |
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In concordance with the way you just put that, it seems to me that a stay-at-home mom has both privileges and responsibilities. She has the privilege of a husband who will protect her and support her financially, and she also has the responsibility of protecting her children. To quote Miley Cyrus, she gets the "best of both worlds," ne? Although I suppose that doesn't fulfill the desire for a career outside the home... Hmmm... |
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Cloe
Moderator
Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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I'd agree with this statement. |
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Eruanna
Posts: 451 Location: Canada |
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I wasnt meaning to exclude men in that, I wasnt even thinking of them in regards t exmple that I gave, I merely thought it went without saying that if "a submissive woman is the equal of a non submissive woman" then of course also "a submissive man is the equal of a non submissive man" |
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konkonsn
 Posts: 172 Location: Illinois |
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The problem comes in when all women are expected to be submissive, and all men are expected to be dominate. Feminism (as a previous poster pointed out, you have misconstrued) says this will cause problems for both men and women. It puts stress on men to always be in control, and if they lose control, they feel their masculinity is threatened. Then they act out in what is considered a dominate-appropriate way = violence. http://gothamist.com/2008/09/09/domestic_violence_accounts_for_almo.php It also depends on what your mean by submissive. To be submissive to a superior is considered honorable. To be submissive to someone beating the ever-loving-crap out of you is something entirely different. |
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Soul Tsukino
 Posts: 68 Location: Maine |
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Regarding Haruka from Sailor Moon. I've been of the veiw that the character was more Transgendered (note: not transexual) than just a "tomboy". The creator of Sailor Moon has stated she has the soul of a man but has always been a woman.
Not to say that Haruka doesn't play up this fact and in good humor try to fool people into thinking she is a guy just to get a laugh, but one would think she would still dress as a guy even if she didn't play that joke. |
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ReiClone88
 Posts: 187 Location: Inside a giant tank full of Tang |
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Eruanna
Posts: 451 Location: Canada |
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No I dont feel Iv misconstrued feminism, I fully understand the origins of it and the ideal of feminism. But I do feel, from what I have experianced with people who call themselves feminists, that what I discribed is accurate of what it has become today. That said, what you just said is exactly why I dont feel I identify as a feminist. While I dont belive that the steriotype should be wantonly applied to everyone, and that anyone deviating from it is, well, a deviant, I do feel that those steriotypes represent the more often norm, and shouldnt be boooed as being oppressive. I actually feel that in our society we dont teach guys how to stand up and take responsibility as men enough. A real man who was really secure in his masculinity would not need to lash out in violence like that; its an overcompensation. Please dont hear me as saying that I think women should let men walk all over them and abuse them! If anything I think the entire idealogy is harder on the men then on the women, it gives men a lot of responsibility that men nowadays are afraid to take. |
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minakichan
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It's an interesting topic.
I do feel a little disappointed in Chicks on Anime's handing of it. I think the column could stand to be more professional and structured; currently it's quite rambly and all of the discussion for this topic especially is just founded on giving examples. What makes Chicks on Anime different from any other small group of fans discussing a topic? These contributors all have some kind of background that gives them some expertise on the subject; can we get more evidence of that? Something more structures, perhaps with a moderator proposing questions, might make this column feel like less of an online forum thread. /$.02 |
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