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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18212
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:20 pm
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This season has been quite satisfying so far, and this was definitely the strongest episode yet. I'd heard people say before that the Bishamon arc was one of the high points of the franchise, and it has certainly proved that so far.
I also think Gabrielle brought up a particularly good point when she mentioned that Bishamon had learned nothing from her past folly. That definitely makes the impact of this storyline all the more poignant.
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Maidenoftheredhand
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2633
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:44 pm
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I bought volume 6 & 7 of the manga digitally because I couldn't wait to find out what happens next. I guess this is proof the series is doing its job (maybe too good of a job because I want to wait but can't)
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Sachiko2010
Joined: 11 Dec 2010
Posts: 68
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:47 pm
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I have to agree with the reviewer's point on the representation of Bishamon in the series: this is how it should be. She isn't some end of a spectrum character (ultra-feminine, ultra-warrior woman, ultra-bitch, ultra-friend, ultra-fill in the blank), she's a composite of a lot of qualities, not really all complementary with each other either (isn't this how we all are?). I like how the show (the manga does a great job with this too) pays attention to all her aspects, and doesn't say "hey, this is how she should be, this is how she shouldn't be." It's quality material and she's a first rate character.
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Mockturtle
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 4
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:39 pm
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Quote: | I also appreciate Bishamon's character. I've seen badass warrior women characters like her before – say, Olivier Armstrong from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood – but they're rarely given this much depth or focus. Unlike many ladies of this stripe, Bishamon is not stripped of positive feminine qualities just because she's been given positive masculine traits as well. She's a powerful woman who's allowed to be both lovingly maternal and a ruthless commander. She alternately wears a girly pink kimono, a murderous dominatrix outfit, and military high command regalia. There's no suggestion that these aspects of her contradict each other. At the same time, she's not put on a pedestal. She has real, deep character flaws that the show addresses, but they have nothing to do with her being too masculine or feminine. This is refreshing because when some shows try to write strong women as nuanced characters, they make their story about somehow correcting their gender presentation more toward one extreme or the other. The solution to Bishamon's problems does not demean her status as a powerful woman. It's a small thing, but as a woman who cares about how her sex is treated in her entertainment, it enhances my enjoyment. |
I was freaked out by this part of the review, because it's almost word for word what my sister and I said about Bishamon's character when we first read this chapter a year ago! Heck, we even compared her to Olivier Armstrong the same way Gabriella did.
Also It's going be interesting in the next arc when that person is introduced.
Eeeee! Excitement! Heck, I know what's going to happen and I still can't wait for next week!
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meiam
Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 3442
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Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:13 pm
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I see this episode quite differently, but I suspect I'm the only one. As far as the revelation of what actually happen when Yato killed Bishamon regalia, I think it's quite the opposite of an emotional gut punch. They weaken the blow quite a bit by only having them being represented as a bunch of asshole, they then further reduce the impact by having them murder each others (how did kill each others come before just get everyone naked and do a good inspection? I'm guessing we'll find out the good doctor was behind that event too) and then they nearly retcon every interaction between Bis and Yato by having the regalia turn into a giant monster, something Bishamon apparently conveniently forgot and something Yato could easily point out. At the end, there's no gut punch involved, killing the regalia was obliviously the thing to do, I only came out of this thinking "boy, Bishamon sure is dumb, probably wouldn't be a bad thing if she died and was replace by a more competent version".
Then Yukine... well I still hold a grudge with him since he kinda ruined half the first season with his teenage angst (and he's far from being an interesting character in S2) so... you know the idea of him not being in the show anymore is one I rather enjoy. Of course that's not gonna happen.
{Please use spoiler tags. Thank you. ~nobahn}
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DRosencraft
Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 665
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:59 am
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I'm kinda agree with Meiam on the first point - the revelation regarding the history between Bishamon and Yato is a little flat for me. It seems way too illogical.
There's no way from what we've seen that Bishamon shouldn't have realized something was happening to her. She obviously should have known that her Ma family regalia had started turning into a phantom that day, and even if not for any of that, it's extremely hard to imagine that for decades neither Kazuma or Yato explained at all to her what actually happened.
Heck, they even seem to allude to the idea that other gods knew about what happened and never thought it might be a good idea to stop her from stewing in homicidal rage over what is being framed right now as a rather simple misunderstanding.
I imagine that impression can be rehabilitated somewhat if they choose to retcon the fact she was told but didn't believe, or Yato had some macho pride act of not letting Kazuma explain, or some sort of plot by Kugaha, but right now I'm not feeling the sort of impact most seem to be getting from that reveal. For me that has been the weakest aspect of an otherwise great season.
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Valhern
Joined: 19 Jan 2015
Posts: 916
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:23 am
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DRosencraft wrote: | I'm kinda agree with Meiam on the first point - the revelation regarding the history between Bishamon and Yato is a little flat for me. It seems way too illogical.
There's no way from what we've seen that Bishamon shouldn't have realized something was happening to her. She obviously should have known that her Ma family regalia had started turning into a phantom that day, and even if not for any of that, it's extremely hard to imagine that for decades neither Kazuma or Yato explained at all to her what actually happened.
Heck, they even seem to allude to the idea that other gods knew about what happened and never thought it might be a good idea to stop her from stewing in homicidal rage over what is being framed right now as a rather simple misunderstanding.
I imagine that impression can be rehabilitated somewhat if they choose to retcon the fact she was told but didn't believe, or Yato had some macho pride act of not letting Kazuma explain, or some sort of plot by Kugaha, but right now I'm not feeling the sort of impact most seem to be getting from that reveal. For me that has been the weakest aspect of an otherwise great season. |
It's actuallly a bit simpler than that. It's not that she didn't notice, it's not that everybody did not notice. She DID, but like Kazuma said, Bishamon is so extremely kind that she would have accepted dying along with all of her Regalias rather than freeing or murdering them, her sense of family and trust to her Regalias is incredibly high, remember how she hesitated to release Kazuma's name even after she found out he was friends with a mortal enemy of hers.
She may not be a human, but what happens to her tends to happen to many humans. Unhealthy relationships do not get solved easily, not even the most extreme crisis resolves it, we've seen so many times cases of violent relationships that go on and on for years, do you think nobody notices they're getting attacked constantly? The reasonable reaction would be is cutting the bonds with that person but it's just not that easy.
What happened to Bishamon was that she could not simply understand how much she burdened herself with so many Regalias (she doesn't even think of them as a burden, since it's a family for her), nor how much she hurt them; it is clear her poor state didn't allow her to control her Regalias and thus they went out of control. But she simply couldn't connect "family" with "problem", and when Yato killed everyone she didn't see any solution in there, since her family never was a problem to her, and Yato came like a bloody murderer and killed her "children". No wonder she went and repeated the same thing, even worse now. Yato and Kazuma avoided telling her anything because it wouldn't have solved nothing, Kazuma would have gotten released, and Yato would have to fight (and probably lose to) Bishamon.
And about the gods not trying to stop her, do you think you can just go and attack Bishamon? That chick is WEARING all of her weapons and she is literally the strongest god of war! There is a reason Yato avoided fighting her, with Kazuma she was too powerful for him, and even without him she can still outmatch Yato.
Aaand that's why I love Bishamon, her character is really well thought at least tome, I can see why anyone would think "wow what a dumb girl" but I heavily disagree.
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Knoepfchen
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 698
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:35 am
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That was a heartbreaking episode.
The nuanced portrayal of Bishamon is something I enjoy as well. While her protective (more maternal or traditionally feminine) instincts have let her close to destruction the second time now, the series at no point suggests this to be something she should discard in favour of her (manly) fighting prowess. She certainly is too naive, but caring about others is at the heart of this show and never portrayed as something stupid or the wrong choice. The series addresses her flaws (being too naive and ignorant about the consequences of her actions) but respects her as a character and as a woman, which is very enjoyable.
On the slightly negative side of things, Yato wiping out her previous clan because they were corrupted wasn't exactly the revelation it was played as. The flags had been raised quite a while ago. Still, the way of distributing the information was well paced.
Although I don't expect Yukine to be (or stay) dead, that cliffhanger was still brutal.
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DRosencraft
Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 665
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:56 am
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I'm not saying she's dumb, I'm not questioning that she loves her family, and I'm not even questioning the idea that she might repeat the mistake. That isn't the problem. It's that after all of that her reaction is to place the blame all on someone else to the point of it turning into blanket homicidal rage with not one bit of doubt on that one aspect, and seemingly no effort to resolve the idea that it's all a misunderstanding. No indication thus far is given that it's anything but Bishamon being unaware of why Yato killed her family.
While some humans at their worst do drown in that sort of irrationality, most do not, and more should be expected for one granted the title of a deity, that they would be able to at least reach the level of average human rationality if so much effort is going to be focused on highlighting human rationality in a deity. As I said, they might flashback on this next ep or something, but just the fact that someone even tried to ease her vengeance with an explanation would do wonders to improve this framing of events, because right now it might as well be Yato walked in her house while she was sick, assassinated her family, and no reason was ever given to her at all. Given the sound execution of the human factor throughout the series, this particular element of the story stretches the bounds a little too far.
To say you will never forgive someone is one thing; to be willing to risk people's lives (or however you choose to phrase the state of regalia) for going on a hundred years to kill someone is another entirely. Worse yet is the idea that Kazuma who has spent so much time caring for her and cares so much about her, has never seen fit to speak to her about it at any length. It sticks out that a character like him would remain totally silent on this fact.
As for the other deities, I never suggested they fight her. Nor do I see a reason she would automatically jump into fighting them. I said they should have intervened - talk to her, let her know that she's making a mistake, something other than letting two fellow deities go on like this. It may not effect them or be really their concern, but you would think at least a couple would care about the state of affairs enough to talk to her as friends, neighbors, something.
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Merida
Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 1945
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:11 am
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I really appreciate how this show portrays Bishamon as this powerful but also severely flawed being while her "flaws" are exactly what makes her more "human" and relatable.
To me the real tragedy seems to be that the bond between gods and regalia is so strong and at the same time so fragile. I don't think any of Bishamon's old family really had bad intentions, but conflict cannot be avoided in such a large group with everyone striving for one person's attention and somehow the situation just went out of hand until it was too late...
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Valhern
Joined: 19 Jan 2015
Posts: 916
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:58 am
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DRosencraft wrote: | I'm not saying she's dumb, I'm not questioning that she loves her family, and I'm not even questioning the idea that she might repeat the mistake. That isn't the problem. It's that after all of that her reaction is to place the blame all on someone else to the point of it turning into blanket homicidal rage with not one bit of doubt on that one aspect, and seemingly no effort to resolve the idea that it's all a misunderstanding. No indication thus far is given that it's anything but Bishamon being unaware of why Yato killed her family.
While some humans at their worst do drown in that sort of irrationality, most do not, and more should be expected for one granted the title of a deity, that they would be able to at least reach the level of average human rationality if so much effort is going to be focused on highlighting human rationality in a deity. As I said, they might flashback on this next ep or something, but just the fact that someone even tried to ease her vengeance with an explanation would do wonders to improve this framing of events, because right now it might as well be Yato walked in her house while she was sick, assassinated her family, and no reason was ever given to her at all. Given the sound execution of the human factor throughout the series, this particular element of the story stretches the bounds a little too far.
To say you will never forgive someone is one thing; to be willing to risk people's lives (or however you choose to phrase the state of regalia) for going on a hundred years to kill someone is another entirely. Worse yet is the idea that Kazuma who has spent so much time caring for her and cares so much about her, has never seen fit to speak to her about it at any length. It sticks out that a character like him would remain totally silent on this fact.
As for the other deities, I never suggested they fight her. Nor do I see a reason she would automatically jump into fighting them. I said they should have intervened - talk to her, let her know that she's making a mistake, something other than letting two fellow deities go on like this. It may not effect them or be really their concern, but you would think at least a couple would care about the state of affairs enough to talk to her as friends, neighbors, something. |
Well, because you're a god that doesn't mean you're rational, it actually depends. For example, Ares was the chaotic god of war but was so reckless that not even Zeus liked him, Athena was the wise god of war yet transformed a woman who was able to knit better than her in a spider, and I t hink she transformed women into gorgons because they were more beautiful than her. Gods are eternal as well are their weapons and they can harbor hatred for centuries as humans do for months or years without thinking of the consequences at all.
Why didn't Kazuma just have a talk with her? In a unhealthy relationship everyone involved has some role in it. Kazuma didn't want to make her even more miserable than she already was considering his life only was spared. He ended up allowing for Bishamon's hatred to last and her repeating the mistake, he put himself in the job of keeping an already unsustainable situation. On the surface, it might seem far-fetched, but I think it's really good writing.
Other dieties simply don't care. Bishamon must have been like this since ever (IIRC the one we're seeing now is her first incarnation since she is a relatively new god), and as long as she is not a threat to the Heavens, no one will take action. And if a "talk" with her implies not killing Yato, she will refuse until you get a gun on your face, she just won't get convinced like that.
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meiam
Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 3442
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:05 am
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Valhern wrote: | She DID, but like Kazuma said, Bishamon is so extremely kind that she would have accepted dying along with all of her Regalias rather than freeing or murdering them, her sense of family and trust to her Regalias is incredibly high, remember how she hesitated to release Kazuma's name even after she found out he was friends with a mortal enemy of hers. |
Except she wouldn't die along with her regalia, she would die alone (and be reborn) and her super phantom regalia would stick around, rampage a bit around the city and then be eventually killed by a god anyway. Awesome way too go. She literally chose the worse possible outcome.
That's a pretty terrible way for a God to act, hence why I say the world would probably be better off with a new version of Bishamon, since as she apparently learned absolutely nothing from that and is about to repeat the same error.
But really my problem is how this essentially retcon everything that happen. Remember when Kuzuma told her Yato helped her and she acted all surprised and even exiled him? That make no sense with this week revelation.
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killjoy_the
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 2460
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:08 am
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meiam wrote: | But really my problem is how this essentially retcon everything that happen. Remember when Kuzuma told her Yato helped her and she acted all surprised and even exiled him? That make no sense with this week revelation. |
She's in denial and can't accept that Yato was helpful, she just sees him as a killer. It's not like she knows it was in order to save her, Yato's reputation in the past wasn't the best and Kazuma didn't make it clear that it was him who asked for her to be saved.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18212
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:57 am
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Agreed with killjoy_the. There has not been a single ounce of retconning here. That Kazuma never explained things to Bishamon was definitely unfair to Yato, and while that does seem to bother Kazuma, his lady is still his first priority. That being said, he also knew Bishamon plenty well enough to know that she was unlikely to be reasonable over him revealing the truth and he probably feared exactly what happened in ep 3 or worse. Given his fierce loyalty to Bishamon, the last thing that he wants to do is risk being separated for her, both because of his own safety and because he feels the need to look out for her. Hence there's absolutely nothing illogical about what has transpired.
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meiam
Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 3442
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Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:17 am
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Well except Kazuma did just tell Bishamon that Yato saved her, you'd think she could add that up with the giant super phantom and come out to a reasonable conclusion.
But there was another person involved in this whole mess, who was it? Oh yeah Yato! You'd think he'd try to talk to her on the numerous occasion Bishamon tried to murder him. You'd think he'd bother to tell her in this episode instead of fighting a pointless fight with Hiyori life potentially in the balance. What possible reason would Yato have to not say anything?
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