Forum - View topicNEWS: Washington Library Responds to Complaint About Child Borrowing Yaoi Manga
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Tanteikingdomkey
 Posts: 2346 |
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my example does not relay on media coverage but her classmates or teachers finding out about it. also I do provide a reasonable example, she takes it to school, they find out, they treat her like a freak that is damage to her. also Fencedude needs to prove their claim it would not hurt her in any incidence, however the devils proof proves that this is impossible to prove. because basically it is near impossible to prove a negative fact especially one like that. also this could be a sign of a larger problem for her that she needs to have addressed as a previous poster mentioned. |
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dragon695
 Posts: 1377 Location: Clemson, SC |
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Why don't libraries switch over to the more sensible LoC catalog system? |
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la_contessa
Posts: 200 Location: Pennsylvania |
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*headdesk* Please explain HOW IN THE WORLD merely framing the debate as a normative issue instead of a positive issue supports censorship. We all agree on what the current rules say; their text is indisputable. The discussion is actually about what they SHOULD say. So, I was pointing out that accusing people of not being aware of the quotes or links in a post where no one denied that those quotes or links existed is not really a fair response. That's it--I didn't even mention whether I agree or disagree with either side. Are you really intending to argue that I was censoring Dessa by re-framing the conversation back to a normative discussion rather than a positive one?
The part of your post that I quoted is where you quoted an earlier post back to people who disagreed with your stance on what the rules should say. Your language in the section I quoted implied that it was wrong of them to express disagreement purely because of what the rules say in their current form, as if the debate were about what they actually say, not what they should say. For example, "I know it was long, but did none of you read my post back on page 5, or the links I provided?" and "The Library Bill of Rights explicitly states ..." both imply that the mere existence of the rules is in itself a rebuttal. If the debate were over what the text of the rules actually is, then yes, that would be a rebuttal--but it's not, so I pointed that out (not out of disagreement with your position, but as the sort of person who is interested in meta-debate issues, such as framing and style, just as much as in the debate content itself). Your language further implied that their disagreement must stem from not having read the current rules, when it was fairly obvious to me that failure to read the current rules was not the issue, since they seemed to be advocating either changing the current rules to allow libraries to enforce age ratings in some fashion OR clarifying them to state that enforcing age ratings is not discrimination. The entire point of my post, which took no position on the actual issue being debated, was that it was not really fair to criticize the other posters for allegedly not having read the current rules when they were disagreeing with the rules, not denying their content or existence. You made other, more salient points in support of your position later in the post, so that single section seemed like an unfair potshot to me, and I felt compelled to say something. Further, the statement, "If you cannot understand why this needs to be so, then you're not understanding my posts" has me scratching my head. You must be using the general "you," right? To refer to anyone out there who may disagree? Because at no point in my post did I say that I disagree with your position. In fact, I completely understand the position you are arguing, as well as the text of the current rules and the values than underlie them. I will point out, of course, that someone disagreeing with you on what "needs" to be the rule does not mean that person does not understand your posts, but rather only that the person disagrees with those posts. My comment is purely meta, however--I am not saying that I personally agree or disagree. |
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dragon695
Posts: 1377 Location: Clemson, SC |
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The inability to prove something false does not imply that it is necessarily true. |
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Polycell
 Posts: 4623 |
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la_contessa, the Library Bill of Rights and Free Access to Libraries are not "the rules", they're ethical statements the rules were crafted to adhere to and are valid rebuttals for your claim the rules need to be change; saying they aren't is intellectually dishonest.
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mrsticky005
Posts: 122 |
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While the parents/guardians are ultimately responsible for their kids
I think that there should at least be a unique section for adult graphic novels or something. So at the very least it's not "accidentally" picked up. |
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Polycell
Posts: 4623 |
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This wasn't an accident, though - the branch of the library she got it from doesn't carry it. She had to request it.
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st_owly
 Posts: 5234 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland |
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About the whole request thing, she could've just looked at another local library's list of manga and seen it on there and requested it without knowing what it was. We just don't know.
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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^this, it's not like the title makes it obvious it's a yoai. also @dragon695 yes that is true however I have shown an example that no one has denied is possible that would lead to that book hurting her. also no one denied their is no bad thing that could happen by saying people under 13 need parental approval to check out books aimed exclusively at adults. |
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st_owly
Posts: 5234 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland |
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Exactly. She could've thought it was a superhero story for all we know.
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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BTW I love your my little monster avatar and the one someone else has with the roster attacking the teacher when she brings him inside in the second episode. |
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Gilles Poitras
Posts: 476 Location: Oakland California |
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Separate graphic novel sections are also handy for browsing. That said many librarians who propose such sections get resistance from directors when it comes to adult graphic novel sections due to the view still held by many that 'comic books' are for kids. Many libraries have kid and teen GN sections but not adult ones, they usually shelve that material in art or fiction. This has been changing over the past decade. If you local library does not have separate graphic novel sections for kids, teens AND adults please consider suggesting it. Your voice may carry more weight than that of staff in such decisions. |
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Gilles Poitras
Posts: 476 Location: Oakland California |
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A side note here. If anyone is interested in viewing the GN4LIB (Graphic Novels for Libraries) list discussion on this topic the postings can be read here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gn4lib/msearch?query=Challenge+to+yaoi+manga+at+King+County&submit=Search&charset=ISO-8859-1 NOTE: Edited URL to limit to one subject. |
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la_contessa
Posts: 200 Location: Pennsylvania |
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I used the phrase "the rules" as shorthand. It seemed unncessary to write the entire title of each document every time, or the phrase "ethical statements to which the rules were crafted to adhere." Apparently I was wrong about that. "your claim the rules need to be change?" (emphasis added) Huh? I was unequivocally talking about other posters' opinions, not my own. I disagree, however, that merely quoting the ethical statements to which the rules were crafted to adhere which are set forth in documents named The Library Bill of Rights and Free Access to Libraries For Minors is (or was, at the time of Dessa's first post including them) a rebuttal to the proposition that the rules or the ethical statements to which the rules were crafted to adhere which are set forth in documents named The Library Bill of Rights and Free Access to Libraries For Minors ought to be modified or clarified. Dessa provided a fine elaboration later on in the post from which I quoted of the reasons underpinning the ethical statements to which the rules were crafted to adhere which are set forth in documents named The Library Bill of Rights and Free Access to Libraries For Minors. That could lead a fascinating discussion of priorities, values, and limits--cool, go for it. But to say, "I know it was long, but did none of you read my post back on page 5, or the links I provided?" and "The Library Bill of Rights explicitly states..." implies that the existing text of the ethical statements to which the rules were crafted to adhere which are set forth in documents named The Library Bill of Rights and Free Access to Libraries For Minors should have, in and of itself, provided a complete bar to further disagreement. This is not a "valid rebuttal" to those who claim the text of the ethical statements to which the rules were crafted to adhere which are set forth in documents named The Library Bill of Rights and Free Access to Libraries For Minors should say something different in the first place. The specific section I quoted seemed to contain what I felt was an unfair charge against those who disagreed. As essentially a professional debater, this bothered me, so I clarified the issue. My objection was to how the argument was made, not the content of the argument. The rest of the post? Good explanation and examples. But the part I quoted? Unfair attack and tone that bothered me. That's it, nothing more. |
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RyanSaotome
 Posts: 4210 Location: Towson, Maryland |
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When you were a kid, would you randomly pick a 2nd volume of a manga you know nothing about from the library listings, and wait for it to come into the library? Why not just get something that was already in the library? Give the kid a little bit of credit here. |
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