Forum - View topicVice & Luna - Mind the Gatemaster
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encrypted12345
Posts: 718 |
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That's something completely different. It goes without saying that you should understand a genre before watching something that parodies it. The Fate/Zero thing is more like "You shouldn't watch Power Rangers Space without watching the previous seasons" or "Watching Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back before the first Star Wars movie is a terrible idea." A fan recommending that you should watch things in production order because the creator assumed any potential viewers will do so isn't confined to Fate/Stay Night Anyone remember the "airing order" and "chronological order" arguments for Haruhi Suzumiya? The controversy of Fate/Zero kind of sounds like this. |
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2093 |
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The latter I agree with, but in terms of the former you get SO much more out of the narrative and certain characters' arcs in Automata if you played Nier. Also, if a new player wanted to go back to Nier, they would already have some of the best plot twists in video games period IMHO ruined for them. I won't tell anyone they HAVE to play the first Nier, but just that I can't possibly say how strongly I recommend they play it or at least watch a good LP of it first (Best Friends Play do a solid one as Liam knows quite a bit of supplementary details from the untranslated artbook). Everyone I've personally known who checked out the first Nier after playing Automata said they realized they should have gone in order. |
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BodaciousSpacePirate
 Subscriber Posts: 3017 |
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Meh, this idea that things are somehow ruined when you see them out of order has never made any sense at all to me. When I was a kid we recorded a lot of movies onto VHS when they were shown on television, so I saw both The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi at least three times each before I ever saw the original movie. Didn't lessen my enjoyment of the series one bit. |
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Roxas4ever
 Posts: 152 |
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I do wonder about the legitimacy of gatekeeping. While I agree that you can't going around telling people they aren't "true" fans of something, a small amount of gatekeeping can help people watch/read/play things in the order that would increase their understanding/appreciation of something. This was super apparent in the Danganronpa fandom when Danganronpa 3: The End of Hope's Peak came out, and all of the fans whose only interaction with the series was the Danganronpa: The Animation were super confused and frustrated.
Although, perhaps what I'm describing isn't "gatekeeping," but "guidance"? I dunno. It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately though. |
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Kicksville
 Posts: 1183 |
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That sounds about right. There's earnestly wanting to help people know the right order of things or otherwise what their options are, and then there's berating people for not going through every piece of media in an exact prescribed order. Or worse, declaring they are not allowed to have an opinion about any of it unless they do (even with a standalone adaptation obviously created in a way that doesn't require prior knowledge). |
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Calsolum
 Posts: 898 |
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Well, I was actually one of those people who watched zero first because chronologically it was advertised as a prequel and since I knew nothing about the franchise I decided watching it in chronological order was the 'right' way to go. True there was a number of things that I didn't pick up on but I'd actually argue that it didn't affect my enjoyment because I didn't know what I was missing and twists that I should have known caught me by total surprise like Kirei's character development. Most importantly I had absolutely no idea who would live and who would die with the exception of spoiler[saber.] I automatically assumed spoiler[kerry and saber] won the war because of spoiler[saber] being the poster of the Fate franchise and boy was I wrong. Midway through the series I was also fervently praying that spoiler[Kariya] would win or at the very least spoiler[get Sakura away from Zouken] maybe even with help from the other masters. If I had prior knowledge of the series I'd know right from the get-go that some things were doomed from the start. Of course, watching the rest of the (anime)series after zero made me watch out for stuff hinted at during zero. Even now I still haven't read the VN despite greatly enjoying almost everything fate and I'm glad I didn't. While I know the gist of what goes on during the 3 routes watching it blind IMO is far more entertaining and then going to the VN to get the finer details that will undoubtedly have been cut for runtime. Although once Heavens Feel finishes airing I'll be out of excuses to put of reading the VN lol tl;dr even if the level of understanding isn't the same you can still get the same if not greater enjoyment from going F/Z first and isn't that the real reason people watch anime. |
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CatSword
 Posts: 1489 |
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A certain low level of gatekeeping (or perhaps just "guidance") is needed to keep things in general working order and avoid posts such as "Help, I started with Nisemonogatari and have no idea what's going on!" "Steins;Gate 0 sucks and makes no sense. No, I haven't seen the original. It has '0' right in the title. It's like episode 0/a prequel."
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grooven
Posts: 1424 Location: Canada |
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This is awesome. There are totally those gate keeper fans and especially those in the Fate fandom.
I prefer Zero to the Fate series myself because of characterization that was improved and I can't stand the male lead in the original.
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Maybe let's stick to the base argument. At the core of this whole deal has always been the idea that if you don't know where to start, you start from the beginning. The reason for that is because that is the way the author(s) intended or at least laid out the story themselves so the hope is that the story progression will feel more natural that way.
Of course in this case the whole argument has been hijacked by "F/SN is better" vs. "F/Z is better". |
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H. Guderian
Posts: 1255 |
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If we're talking continuity and such, I started UC Gundam in Zeta Gundam. I got out pretty okay.
Gatekeepers when they're doing their job right help bring a newbie up to speed, and present all options and the drawbacks. "You can start here, but the studio originally handling the franchise was rather bad. So while you might miss out a bit of story the newer one is a visual treat." LoGH is back in the news, and people used to recommend watching the prequel OVAs AFTER the main 110 episode Epic. Let's look at Macross, starting in the middle with 7 would give you an entirely impression There have been some franchises I wish I had a good Gatekeeper on. How many people would like to watch One Piece, but there is almost no way to catch up nowadays? While starting OP from the start is logical, it is now impossible for most. Difference between Gatekeepers and Guidance? Etiquette? I've known a gatekeeper on physical discs/vhs and he was just bad at trying to help you get the best video quality possible. |
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championferret
 Posts: 765 |
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This argument would only make sense if both series had the same writers and were similar shows, but they arent. Fate/Zero is so different to Fate/Stay Night in tone and writing that its entirely possible to hate Fate/Stay Night and love Fate/Zero. (Or vice versa, apparently)
I don't HATE FSN personally, but I could gripe all day about what I dislike -about- it. I did watch F/Z first after trying and failing to get into F/SN because I really DID dislike it, but getting into F/Z made me retroactively appreciate it. I literally wouldnt have given the Fateverse a second look if it wasnt for F/Z. So every time I see some Nasufan hemming and hawing about how its the ~wrong~ way and I sabotaged my enjoyment and couldnt possibly ~get~ the show on the intended level, I can't help but roll my eyes. And I seem to be alone in thinking that the 'twists' that F/Z 'spoils' arent even very interesting ones anyway, and that the things about F/Z that watching/playing F/SN first will 'spoil' are more interesting. I've tried numerous other entries in the Fate franchise, and while I do enjoy a fair few, in my personal opinion none of them even come close to how much I liked F/Z. It's been my favourite anime since 2012 and nothing has managed to top it for me. So I'm completely satisfied with the way I experienced it, and if that fact gets the Nasufans undies in a twist, they'll just have to deal with it. Find another hill to die on guys. |
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Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
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Thanks for the comic! It was funny!
Regarding gatekeeping: I could care less about the correct order of things if a different approach appeals to me more. It doesn't mean I approach series with the intent to sabotage, but I adapt the way that best fits my interests. I tried the first 4 episodes of F/SN 5 or so years ago, really did not like Shirou, and wasn't interested enough in the story to keep going. I don't ever see myself finishing the anime without taking drastic action (like watching the episodes from last to first, which would keep me invested for the challenge). I've already been long spoilered on the Fate Universe. I'm the kind of person who likes knowing how the journey ends even if I'm not interested in experiencing the adventure. So if I have a pretty good idea that I won't fully watch/read/play a series, I'll just read summaries and spoilers online to know what happens. Hell, there have been times that the spoilers have made me invested enough to continue. Regardless, if there's any part of the Fate Universe that I would be interested in watching, it would be the F/Z anime. Although, now that I've brought up the idea for watching F/SN backwards, I'm tempted on following through. I have no issue with people who want to guide others on how to make decisions that would best fit their interests. But it's the gatekeepers who make me want to gleefully do things out of order. |
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Spike Terra
 Subscriber Posts: 359 Location: Maryland |
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Man I wish I had Fairy money. Money that would allow me to buy elaborate costumes and set pieces to prove a point. Or at least enough money to buy expensive series like Fate Zero on a whim
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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Also, considering the Darth Vader reveal is THE single most famous plot twist in the history of cinema is a testament to how you should properly watch/read stuff so as to avoid spoilers. |
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