Forum - View topicNEWS: Japanese Panel Pushes Ban on Illegal Downloads Forward
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Are the 7500 comments from voters? Or those too young to vote yet? Or jaded types who never vote? Look at our own voter turnout-wasn't it like 50% or less last time Bush was elected? And 7500? What's 7500? There are 3 million people in my county alone. 7500 out of how many MILLIONS potential voters? I'm not sure any of the incorporated cities in my county has less than 50,000 people in it so 7500 is a small twon. As they say-it's inevitable. If they want to protect their product (anime) they're going to have to buckle down on stuff that affects other countries's products. Stop Americans from downloading anime while Japanese citizens can download the latest Hollywood blockbuster? Not gonna fly. Backs need scratching.
I know a lot of people who download anime & Hollywood movies without batting an eye. If they can't afford anime, do you think they can afford $15 for a movie ticket when they know where they can download it for free? This is what I said (& pissed a few people off). As each country sees the benefit of working with their neighbors on this issue, the more you will see laws passed & the "untamed West" of the internet will slowly become "settled" & "civilized". |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Your views are much more positive than mine are on the reasons people vote. Most people that I know don't like politicians in general. They vote based on "likeability" which is largely based on personality and how the media portrays the person. At the lower levels of government (representatives, local government) with people they hardly ever see they vote for the name they know instead of the name they don't know. Since it's these lower level people who have collective effect that turns out to be quite important.
You could make a case that presidents are elected by their actual positions on the issues more often (since they get a lot more air time) but then at least we in America have hardly been consistent on which issues we vote on. The reason is that there are just far too many issues. So most candidates get elected by having A) the most money to spend on advertisements and B) not doing anything to screw themselves in the media. As long as they don't tick off too many of those who care about the single issues strongly they are good to go. There are some exceptions but this is generally the way things work. As far as this particular law goes, I want to know personally how you think it's a good thing. DId you read the part about how it could make people who just go to a website eligible for prosecution? Do you think that is actually sane? Someone could easily be searching for legitimate materials online and click on a link which gets them on trouble with the law. That's extremely dumb, and is a perfect example of what I have been talking about in the past. If we continue to try and legislate individual morality on the issue of file sharing we are going to have to screw privacy and there will be a lot of people prosecuted erroneously. On top of that these laws require a system where the people who are prosecuted have to be punished to a greater extent than the actual crime they committed. This is why we have people getting fined thousands (or even hundreds of thousands) for sharing a few songs, and many of them are just kids. |
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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Very true. As they say, the only poll that really matters is the one that's held on election day. ← Speaking of the election itself of course. Anyway like I said in my first post, it will be interesting to see if they choose to enforce this in a different manner. And if it actually works, then other countries can adopt the system. From the article, it is obvious they are concerned with casual users accidentally stepping into an illegal area, so I think they might be making an inventive enforcement strategy. Even better if it is easily adaptable. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Oh I agree that it is obvious. The fact that they know it and still are going to go through with a law like this is what is incredibly chilling here. The fact that many people like yourself actually believe the government cares just because they recognize the problems is why most people will sit idly by and do nothing about it.
"Inventive enforcement" of a bad law may negate some of these issues but a bad law is still a bad law. Considering how much extra work this could add to the police they may just not go far enough to analyze the details and decide to drop the case. And since most people can't defend themselves in court I see a lot of people getting screwed over for nothing. Defending bad laws out of respect for the government is incredibly naive. It assumes that the government is always a positive force and always has the time and resources to commit to not going after the wrong people. The extent of monitoring that enforcement will require is extremely high. We berate countries like China for doing this to their people, yet willing accept it for ours. |
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Dargonxtc
Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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But we don't know if it is a bad law yet. And neither do you. Would you rather have them make the law with no concern over casual users getting caught in an illegal web?
But how dare they make illegal downloads illegal, is you main point I think. I know I know, you want Japan to do what ever other western country does. Which is nothing. We get it. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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If they are pushing for a law against downloads that includes streaming sites, there is no way it could be drafted in a reasonable manner that wouldn't have the possibility that you mentioned. It's a bad idea from the outset. I suppose I'll grant that they could magically avoid this by.. some unknown means. I don't want any country to waste time on enforcement of individual morality. I would prefer that there be more enforcement against commercial bootlegging, but absolutely no laws or enforcement against file sharing. I do not support what "every other western country" does either. We make laws like the DMCA ourselves, and support ridiculous fines in civil lawsuits for activity that is not provably negative. Laws and enforcement should be made such that the punishment fits the crime, which is not the way things work now. |
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TsubomiKoneko
 Posts: 247 |
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Hmm...
Sorry to be a little airheaded, but this is confusing to me. Will this effect people outside of Japan? And does it only effect people's activities from now and on into the future, or how far back are they going to be looking up IP logs? Then again, the last question probably isn't one people here can answer lol. |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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To Tsubomi:
No, not really. Here is why. Those who are uploading (the ones providing raws) are doing something illegal under current law. So since that is already illegal and it's still being done it will have no effect on that, except if perhaps those downloading are the ones uploading to the services that fansubbers use. Anyway, I think the effect would be minimal at best.
This still requires monitoring everyone and the logs could be based on other people who are at the persons house, their kids, or it could be that they stepped away from the computer after clicking a link and the whole episode played. Not to mention, the person may not think what they are watching is necessarily "illegal" because it won't exactly be displayed in big bold words for them. So if they are only seeing a clip of an episode or the intro of a show or something like that, it's something that would get them in trouble when they had no intention of doing anything wrong. The law is ultimately to benefit a part that is not needing the benefit. Prove to me that the industry makes too little money and it isn't able to function in the current system. If it is able to function why do we need to change or add new laws to defend something that is already working? It's cliche, but I have to say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" Yeah I get that the industry would like to make more money, but do they really need to make more? Is it going to benefit society further if they do? Last edited by Xanas on Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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So now you've managed to downplay illegal file sharing so much that you honestly believe the wholesale unauthorized distribution of someone else's product for free is solely an issue of personal morality? It IS illegal, you know, and just because you think artists shouldn't have the right to profit from their work without having it ripped off and passed around for free by some jackass with too much time on his hands doesn't make it NOT illegal. No offense Xanas, I'm a little tired of hearing this endless IP rhetoric from you. It's obvious you don't view a movie or a TV show or a song as a product, you think it's some ethereal thing that should never solely belong to one person for really any reasonable amount of time. You're thinking in abstracts, desperately attempting to justify piracy. I would think that you are not in any sort of business that requires you to produce creative product, otherwise I doubt you would have this attitude that is so potentially damaging to commercial art. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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You are right that I don't see it as a product. I get that you are "tired of hearing this endless rhetoric" from me. Do you think this is any less tiring for me to hear things like this? Honestly, I agreed with the point you made to me before. I think people deserve to be paid for what they work on. However, this does not mean that they should necessarily get paid for every individual copy, nor does it mean that what they work on is comparable to corporeal objects. I do see it is an "ethereal thing" because that's what it is! None of your arguments changes that. Government laws don't change that. This is why the whole idea of "intellectual property" is a total farse. Copyright law as a monopoly on commercial distribution is something I can agree to, your extension of that to make it the same as physical things is not. As far as my work goes I work for a finance company. I spend a bit of time there working accounts, etc. but I do a fair amount of programming of access based database programs. I don't have the talent for "creative" work that you are probably referring to (I can't draw to save my life), but that doesn't mean I don't respect that work. This being said, my respect for that work doesn't mean that I automatically have to view it in the way you do.
This simply is not true. This is about the manner of profiting, but I absolutely do not believe that peoples ability to copy something should be taken so far as to not properly support those who work, in any field. If I actually believed as you say here I wouldn't be buying dvds at all because I don't value the packaging or collection that much. I like anime and want to support it, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with intellectual property. |
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TsubomiKoneko
Posts: 247 |
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Oh I see, thank you. That makes a bit more sense to me now, I wasn't exactly sure what it was they were planning on doing. I forgot that fansubbers have to get their raws from somewhere. |
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Dargonxtc
Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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Are not databases and the work done on them an "etheral thing" as well. Let's say I got a job at the company you work for. I somehow gained access to a "database project" you were working on for say, a month. I then took that project stamped my name on it, and then turned it in to the boss* myself, gaining much praise for such a good job. Furthermore you get fired or demoted for lack of productivity. After all, all I did was copy it. *Assume your boss totally bought the idea that I had done the work myself. And there was no way to prove otherwise. Unrealistic, yes. But I am just making a point. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Dargonxtc, what you would have done would compare to what I was speaking of earlier, in other words, "commercial bootlegging." I am against lying selfishly for personal gain. If you were to say "I gained access to a database project you created and copied it for use at home or for use of another finance company" I think it'd be a more direct comparison. The company I work for might care about that, but my personal views are much different on that topic. If I were able, I'd like to work for a company who was pro-open source (like IBM or Redhat or Novell or Sun) and would let me contribute to open source projects. I think a company is only as good as how it treats it's employees and it's customers, and if the technology it develops is beneficial to more than themselves it'd be great if they would share it. That's just my personal view though and I know many others disagree.
The thing is, anime isn't like software. Software is a utility that others can use and thus requires support and customer service which companies can sell. My software is useful to my teams and the people around me, and that's why they can pay me to make it, even if it was shared outside. Anime isn't useful in that way so companies aren't going to pay to develop it unless it can be sold in some form or fashion. This being said, there are many ways to sell anime that don't have anything to do with selling individual copies. There is TV, there is online subscriptions, and yes there is DVD sales. Not everyone will be interested in any one particular thing, so the companies need to find as many ways as people are interested in supporting. I, personally, like DVDs "ok" for shows I want to watch more than once (which for me is most of them). I also think the packaging/etc. is kind of cool, so since I've started buying anime I've gotten into the whole collecting thing a little more. Before I started I thought the whole thing was ridiculous, and there are a lot of people who will always think that. Those people just want to watch once and so DVDs are of little interest to them. Anyway, basically I am saying that companies need to find as many avenues as possible to create support for themselves, and on the consumer side people should support anime insofar as they are capable and interested in it. |
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