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NEWS: When Piracy Becomes Promotion


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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2075
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:45 pm Reply with quote
I might agree with Matt Greenfield's sentiments if it appeared that was the case. From what I can see however is that the bootlegs translations and scripts appear to be done "in-house" so to speak.

It's one thing to take a stand, and as a business, I can fully apprecaite why he wants to do so. However, giving false information is not going to help his case. Even if the fansubbers stopped, the bootleg DVD's would not.


Last edited by Godaistudios on Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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abunai
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Joined: 05 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:54 pm Reply with quote
Miagi wrote:
Also, does anybody know about Sean Leonard's history of Amierican anime fandom that this guy cites? I couldn't find it online.

You must have overlooked the link, right there at the bottom of the article. This link is harder to overlook, neh?

-abunai
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Pandemonium



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 102
Location: Canada, NS
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:20 pm Reply with quote
On one hand, fansubs opened anime/manga up to North America and other parts of the world since it was next to impossible to find any of it way back when. They made no profit and most stopped when the series got licensed.

On the other hand, the fansubbing groups of today...you don't see them out making money off corners selling bootleg copies, the problem is people aquiring the fansubs, and selling them over ebay.

But there is also the question of why do fansubbing groups keep putting out eps after eps, and series after series of licensed anime and newly licensed anime?

It's probably because companies...I'll use ADV as a good example...who look to see what's popular (I'm guessing, but they probably just go to the major fansubbing groups, view the tracker stats and see what's going fast) scoop up the license to that series and let it sit around for years with no sign of releasing it soon, then the time comes when the contract is almost up and then release one DVD and don't do anything else with it.
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beelzebozo



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 308
Location: Aurora, Colorado
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:18 pm Reply with quote
Miagi wrote:
Quote:
Japanese animation was exported into the western market as early as the 1960s, when Astro Boy, Speed Racer, and Gigantor made it onto American television primarily through local syndication. By the late 1960s, however, reform efforts, such as Action for Children’s Television, had used threats of boycott and federal regulation to push back against content they saw as inappropriate for American children.

I don't see the connection here. Was Speed Racer really the kind of "inappropriate" content targeted?


Speed Racer was one of those on the list. It was very violent for what was considered children's television. Speed was known to puch and kick people all over place, as well as the bullets flying that would actually hit things. To give some perspective, the old "Dungeons & Dragons" Saturday morning cartoon was labeled one of the the most violent shows on the market in its time by these same people.

Miagi wrote:
There's too much theory here and not enough reality. I don't buy the whole "anime clubs built the industry" thing, especially when he cites Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! as two breakthrough shows. Maybe there's an argument to be made, but I've never seen anyone draw a strong connection--it's always "fan clubs exposed people to anime, and then some fans went pro."


How much stronger do you need? Those fans that went pro turned around and sold the product to the people that they knew they could sell to, the gang back at the anime club. This provided the foothold that allowed them to license bigger products that would appeal to the masses. And Yu-Gi-Oh & Pokemon wouldn't have been such big "anime" hits if there weren't people around going "Pokemon? Oh, did you know that's Japanese? Do you want to see more like it?"
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
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Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:20 pm Reply with quote
Pandemonium wrote:

But there is also the question of why do fansubbing groups keep putting out eps after eps, and series after series of licensed anime and newly licensed anime?

It's probably because companies...I'll use ADV as a good example...who look to see what's popular (I'm guessing, but they probably just go to the major fansubbing groups, view the tracker stats and see what's going fast) scoop up the license to that series and let it sit around for years with no sign of releasing it soon, then the time comes when the contract is almost up and then release one DVD and don't do anything else with it.


Okay, I've heard some silly arguments in my time, but this is one of the worst I've seen in awhile. When it comes to licenses, it's rare to see it take a year or longer for the first DVD to come out. I've seen DVD's of series as early as four months of an announcement. The average time I typically see is about six to nine months however, and there can be numerous issues as to why. Years? While there are a few notable exceptions, it's not the general rule.

While I can understand why you might take issue for different reasons, using misinformation in order to strengthen your point is going to get you nowhere.
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Pandemonium



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:22 pm Reply with quote
Okay, I can understand that 'years' might be an extreme, but looking at the Anime Expo 03 list of licensed anime that ADV claimed, that would be at least more than one year now, about 5 of more than a dozen I looked at have nothing released as of yet. And I do not claim to know if they are in progress at the moment. So I'm not exactly wrong, just a little extreme on how long.
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cyrax777



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:25 pm Reply with quote
the reason why the sit on titles is so they dont flood the market. atleast thats my take on it.
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Nagisa
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Joined: 19 Aug 2003
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Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:27 pm Reply with quote
Pandemonium wrote:
Okay, I can understand that 'years' might be an extreme, but looking at the Anime Expo 03 list of licensed anime that ADV claimed, that would be at least more than one year now, about 5 of more than a dozen I looked at have nothing released as of yet. And I do not claim to know if they are in progress at the moment. So I'm not exactly wrong, just a little extreme on how long.


Well, you don't honestly expect them to simultaneously work on some 12-20 titles all at once, do you? Talk about burnout...
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Pandemonium



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Canada, NS
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:37 pm Reply with quote
Well I know that, but say one company licenses 14 series a year, from then to that time next year, they release half and license another 14, and so on. Going like that, it would just be a never ending cycle. So a year+ doesn't seen that far off.
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RabbitRevolution



Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:56 am Reply with quote
I don't think the comparison of doujinshi and fansubs works. Doujinshi artists create spin-offs of popular manga that are meant to complement, rather than to substitute for, them. To get the real story, fans must actually read the original work. After watching an entire anime series fansubbed however, what motivation do many fans have to buy it? Of course there are fans who want better picture/sound quality, a dub, and decent (rather than sloppy) subtitles, but there are just as many fans who don't care enough to buy. I'm not arguing against fansubs here, but I just think that the issue of doujinshi is a whole different ball game.
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beelzebozo



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:42 pm Reply with quote
While I do think fansubs can become a problem, I think Greenfield needs to look at what's going on before placing too much blame on them. Many bootleggers are now simply ripping the R1 discs, putting more per disc and selling them.

Stopping fansubbers won't stop the bootleggers. They will simply go back to doing the work themselves and ripping the work off R1 releases when they come out.

Stopping fansubs won't stop bootleggers. Going after bootleggers & their sellers will stop bootleggers.
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
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Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:37 pm Reply with quote
beelzebozo wrote:
While I do think fansubs can become a problem, I think Greenfield needs to look at what's going on before placing too much blame on them. Many bootleggers are now simply ripping the R1 discs, putting more per disc and selling them.

Stopping fansubbers won't stop the bootleggers. They will simply go back to doing the work themselves and ripping the work off R1 releases when they come out.

Stopping fansubs won't stop bootleggers. Going after bootleggers & their sellers will stop bootleggers.


That's almost exactly my point... I've seen a local bootleg seller in a shopping mall here, and they were R1 rips from Hong Kong. The other stuff that wasn't licensed were not from fansubbers scripts, but stuff that was done "in-house"

If Matt Greenfield wants to stamp out bootleggers, then more power to him... but he shouldn't put the blame where it doesn't belong. Moreso, he shouldn't create a dogma that somehow it will stop if fansubbing stops.
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cyrax777



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:53 pm Reply with quote
wait IRC didn't ADV start as fansubbers who eventaly went commerical?
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Sword of Whedon



Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 683
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:01 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
If Matt Greenfield wants to stamp out bootleggers, then more power to him... but he shouldn't put the blame where it doesn't belong. Moreso, he shouldn't create a dogma that somehow it will stop if fansubbing stops.


You missed what he was saying. The fact that people can download fansubs, and more importantly the BOOTLEGGERS are downloading them as well, and getting DVDs on the street as fast as they can fill a disc has completely sabotaged the ability of the Japanese companies to sell their properties to mainland Asia. It's not going to be ADV suing the fansubbers, it's the Japanese studios.
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Pandemonium



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 102
Location: Canada, NS
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:48 pm Reply with quote
Japanese Studios suing fansubbers...isn't that the total opposite of what the article was about when you get down to it? They view it as promotion. From what I've noticed, it actually is ADV and others who have aquired the licenses from Japan that will take action against the groups.
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