Forum - View topicREVIEW: Fate/Zero Blu-Ray Box Set II
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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I agree. I think JO is being overly broad (if not harsh) in her judgement here. Sakura was placed in the situation she ended up in by her father, who thought he was doing her a good turn, and Kariya knew what was actually going to happen to her, which was horrible. If Kariya had done nothing, that horrible thing would still have happened to Sakura. As far as Aoi... Aoi must've realized that Kariya had *some* sort of feelings towards her. I think she said what she did to hurt him rather than that she believed it herself. The whole thing was wrung for every drop of tragedy the author could get from it. In fact, this was basically the M.O. of the author overall. If I didn't already know what was coming in the Fate VN, my reaction to F/Z would be... less positive. If the VN stories (Fate, Unlimited Blade Works, Heaven's Feel) were as unrelentingly bleak and hostile to real goodness in people (with the exception of Waver and Rider), I wouldn't have liked them anywhere near as much as I did. All in all, a pretty good review, but I still won't pay AoA prices, so I won't be getting this. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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I would agree with this if it wasn't for the last shot we see of Sakura. (Whether it's the real Sakura or the one in Kariya's mind, I don't really remember, but it hardly matters.) Yes, she's way too young for us to assume that's the choice she would have made for her sister's sake regardless. Yes, she was horribly manipulated and abused and the mage family system is awful. But the last we see of Sakura is spoiler[her casting Kariya into the bug pit and saying "You shouldn't have disobeyed Grandfather."] I think at that point it's safe to assume that at least in some way Kariya was not acting on behalf of her feelings or at least didn't understand her really. And that was the point I was trying to make, not that what Kariya was doing was wrong, but that it was for the wrong reasons. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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I think this is one of those places that wasn't adapted very well from the books. She doesn't understand why Kariya did what he did. All she sees in his death is that it is a result of disobeying Zoken. That convinces her that resisting him is pointless. Basically Urobuchi wringing as much suffering out of the whole ordeal as possible. |
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Stall_19
 Posts: 78 |
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Well here's a translation of the scene in question from the novel.
spoiler[Sakura stared at the corpse of the man who had fallen before her in the icy-cold darkness of the worm storage. This man was muttering to himself even till the end, and a satisfied smile was on his face even as he died. How odd. Why would this man return here? Why did he still want to live when he was in such a despicable state? Although Sakura couldn’t understand why, she clearly knew why he was in anguish, and why he was dead. – You must not disobey Grandfather. Everyone in the Makiri house knew that, but why wouldn’t this man obey that rule? He was an adult, but he was helplessly stupid. Why, why would this man choose such a meaningless death? After a brief consideration – ahh, that was why. Sakura suddenly understood it. This must be her lesson tonight. A lesson to teach her what would happen to those who disobeyed Grandfather’s will. This man died here so Sakura could see a real example with her own eyes. Yes, I understood, Grandfather. The girl nodded obediently. She burned this scene deep into her memory while she stared, unmoving, at the corpse surrounded by worms that was gradually becoming smaller and smaller.] |
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SquadmemberRitsu
 Posts: 1391 |
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Glad we could get a competent review this time. I definitely liked the second season slightly more than the first for its more action heavy focus while still retaining the same great dialogue and top notch writing of the first half but the show as a whole is absolutely fantastic.
If I had any complaints outside of the obvious issues that come from being a prequel (Which are made even worse by how good Fate/Zero is as a standalone series) I would say that the dialogue dragged a little in the first season (Didn't have that problem with the second half though) and Urobuchi did occasionally get a bit carried away whenever he ramped up the darker moments. But other than that, Fate/Zero's just a fantastic series.
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Redcrimson
 Posts: 160 |
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Eh, I don't totally agree with that. I definitely agree that Gargantia is his weakest effort, and I think Madoka is his actual peak. But I think Psycho-Pass is a more interesting work for a lot of reasons. For one, Psycho-Pass is the most distilled Urobuchi of all his shows. One of his big unifying themes is Idealism vs. Utilitarianism. In shows like Madoka and Fate/Zero, this conflict is mostly metaphorical. In Psycho-Pass, that conflict is quite literal. The characters are literally confined within a institutionalized system of forced pragmatic morality. The villains are twisted and evil, but the show paints them as a reactionary force against Sibyl. Akane's struggle against them is very much a manifestation of her naive idealism versus the rigid pragmatism imposed by Sybyl. And in true Urobuchi fashion, this conflict is ultimately unresolved. Because for Urobuchi, it's the struggle that matters. Like Akane says spoiler["Someday, humanity will find a better way. Someday someone will come in here and turn off the lights."] As dark and brooding as Urobuchi's work is, his view of humanity is actually rather optimistic. |
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Spotlesseden
Posts: 3514 Location: earth |
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why part I animation is C, but Part 2 animation is B+. Was there a big improvement in the second half?
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Stall_19
Posts: 78 |
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Different reviewers, different opinions. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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They don't oppose each other. The goal of Utilitarianism is to bring most happiness to the largest number of people. A very idealistic goal, don't you think? |
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Durga
 Posts: 103 |
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Sigh, are people STILL mad about that review? You do realize that a) Carlo gave his reasons for his grade, b) there was more to that review than just grades, and c) while and Hope and Carlo have varying opinions on the animation and direction, they both have some valid criticisms, particularly on the CG and the directing of dialogue. I actually went back and read Carlo's review after reading Hope's. Since they're talking about two different parts they read very differently, and Hope's review has the advantage of seeing the complete show and not just the first half. However I do think Carlo's criticisms were particularly relevant to the first half, which has way more of those infamous talking head scenes and less of the big twists and defining moments of the story that are in the second half. Oh yeah, Carlo's review was more than just giving the animation a "C." The blowback for that last review was terribly unfair. I'm glad that the comments for this review have been more civil, but let's not pretend that Hope's review is good simply because it's praising a show with a huge fanbase that might get mad at her if she gave it a lower score. It's a good review because she puts forth a good argument for her opinions on the show, and a good argument should open up good discussion. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Well that's disgusting, thanks for that.  That clears up a lot too. So Aoi didn't appreciate or agree with Kariya's sacrifice and Sakura just completely misunderstood it. Either way: don't do the right thing for the wrong reason, kids. Urobuchi will feed you to worm-roach-demons.
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Spotlesseden
Posts: 3514 Location: earth |
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why are you so mad by a sample question? And should the same person review all the eps instead of use different people for inconsistent review of the series?
what are those have to do with art? aren't those more of different director different approach of telling a story/shooting film? |
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Animerican14
 Posts: 963 Location: Saint Louis, MO |
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This was a pleasant review to read, and not just because I'm happy to see others detail the things that they like that I like!
 It resembled a literary critique to me, which I suppose makes sense, considering whence the anime came. I almost wish that you decided to allow for spoilers in this review, as it felt like in your (admirable) avoidance of spoiling, some of the prose... stumbled over itself a bit? (like this sentence of "Staunch fundamentalists are juxtaposed with radical mold-breakers, and both are found wicked or admirable at different turns to different people as the path for the grail winds back on itself.") Nonetheless, to echo MexicanAnime, you hit upon much of what has made Fate/Zero such a wonderful show, enough so that the aspects that I don't agree with you on are fairly minimal (but, I hope, are still worthy of your consideration in the forum).
Similar to what MexicanAnime said, I don't think the conversations were a waste, at least most of them, and made for a 'lesser' first season. (I think all the time spent on Caster was the biggest hamper on the series' first half, actually.) Necessary foundations for world-building, character development, strategies etc. were established; rather little felt filler. I am also unsure about what 'cinematic quality' you were looking for more of during the dialogues-- were you hoping for more fancy camerawork like what Shinbo has been known for, more movement, more abstract lighting...? And as silly as the whole walking around in circles portion can be construed, it was definitely more than just talking heads, at the very least. Heck, in retrospect, maybe you could think of it as a visual metaphor for the rigid order and pressure both Tokiomi and Risei put on Kirei for their obtainment of the Grail? 8D And yeah, the CG... again I share the sentiment that a lot of the CG felt appropriate to their magical, rather other-worldly nature. (Though I did feel it went a bit overboard with Caster's giant purple Eldritch abomination). I think I'm a bit surprised that the only example that you didn't mention in your more critical comments was Berserker, which was among my favorite implementations of CG in the series. Perhaps you thought that was one of the show's better uses of computer graphics? Speaking of Berserker... what'd you think about him and his conflict with Saber overall, JesuOtaku? spoiler[Having little beforehand knowledge of King Arthur's mythos before my first viewing of the series, even though my mind wasn't far from it due to having played the VN before ... I didn't have much of a reaction to the reveal that it was Lancelot all along. (Maybe part of it had to do with me expecting him to be Mordred.  ) There was also very little exposition about him, at least anything that carried a substantial and resonant emotional heft to it. I only knew how *important* the final conflict between Arturia and Lancelot was by seeing the former's anguish and latter's madness-- yay for ignorance about the tragedy of Lancelot!-- so in this regard, I thought Berserker was under-served by the anime. (Granted, I did appreciate it more on my second viewing.) I think this situation was somewhat rectified by the extra exposition provided in the final sixth episode of Onegai! Einzbern Consultation Room, but not completely.].
Not to mention, I've actually read about a big negative towards Aniplex's release-- technically lesser-quality audio for the dub-- which I'm almost surprised to not see mentioned. But then again, maybe only audiophiles would notice it; I doubt I'd have really noticed it did I not read about it in a review. (Or am I giving to little credit to yo, JesuOtaku? Forgive me if I am.) From Chris Beveridge's review of Part 2, which discusses the same audio problems as mentioned in his review of part 1:
And at a time when Funimation is dipping its toes into super-limited-edition products, releasing 26 episodes bundled in with a bunch of extras for significantly less than Aniplex's L.E. offerings... yeah, I don't think it's too soon for them to start getting a tad more "economical" with their prices. Especially when their products aren't as pristine as they'd like us to believe. (Mind you, F/Z is the rare series that I probably *will* fork over $250-300 for... but that's going to take up an uncomfortable amount of saving up for.) Last edited by Animerican14 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Knoepfchen
 Posts: 698 |
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A really good and layered review. Thank you. Not just because I love this show. I'm grateful and happy you mention the hope within the tragedy:
When people cheer for Urobuchi because his stories are so dark and twisted, I always feel a bit lonely (and weird) for finding such strong messages of hope within them. Glad I'm not the only one. While I did not think of the CGI as badly as other people, I do realize some of it is not the show's strongest point. As for the long dialogue (and monologue) scenes, I do think the review credited them for being so incredibly well written and only critized them for being adapted in such a non cinematic way. This is very true. I don't care that much about it, as the quality of the dialogue alone keeps me glued in front of the screen eagerly expecting the next sentence, but that is not to say that criticism isn't valid here.
Yes, it is.  And it's exactly these stories and characters like Kariya that make it so. In Kariya's and Tokiomi's confrontation on the rooftop, Tokiomi calls Kariya irresponsible and misguided. Which he is. Tokiomi's not the bad guy in this. Neither is Kariya, who wants to be a saviour, but is, ultimately, motivated by spoiler[desiring a woman he could never have and destroying the man who got her in his place (and who happens to stand for everything he hates, whichever came first)]. His truly is a selfish self-sacrifice, which doesn't make it less touching. On the contrary. It just makes it more honest. Just like Sayaka's realization spoiler[of her sacrifice being selfish was what destroyed her in the end, not the fact that the person she sacrificed herself for chose to love someone else. It's when she realizes she could not act as selflessly as she wanted to ("I really was an idiot") when she finally gives in to darkness.] Still, Urobuchi doesn't just destroy his idealists for tragedy's sake. There is a purpose to it. spoiler[Madoka returns Sayaka's idealism to her in the end, making her sacrifice a selfless one once again. While Kariya is not as fortunate,] the possibility of hope already shines through Fate/Zero and will be restored with FSN.
I also think there was more to Lancer than spoiler[becoming the point of no return for everyone else]. As noble and chivalrous as he was, his motivation to fight in the war was spoiler[restoring his honour. Which he lost by being murdered for, again, desiring (and, in his case, getting) someone who, technically, wasn't quite his to desire. Sure, this woman, unlike Aoi, did love him back, and maybe he just can't be blamed for being too gorgeous not to fall in love with, but] it is a different take on a similar story and tragedy, I believe. One cannot help but wonder if the existence of a true, noble hero is even possible in this world. Which brings me back to the perfect and thrilling dialogue scenes of the show where topics like this got explored so wonderfully.
I couldn't agree more with every word you're saying here. I feel strangely empowered in the end, and not depressed at all. |
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ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
 Posts: 653 |
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Seeing people say "This review is good unlike that last one" is pretty disheartening. The review does not depend on your agreement with it. If that's what you're taking out of these reviews you're better of not reading them in the first place. Add in that the reviews are mostly in agreement with each other and that everyone is taking it as GOOD VS BAD review is even worse. Hope even mentions that the reason the animation score in her review is better is because the talking head scenes dominated the first half compared to the second. I'm pretty sure if she had reviewed the first half the animation score would have been much lower than her one for this half.
There's different approaches and then there's laziness. Talking head scenes in visual mediums are not effective when their only purpose is to infodump with nothing happening on screen. Just lazy infodumps. Granted with a world as bloated as the type-moon universe it is hard to display all of that information visually, but it would have been nice to either attempt to or at least trim down or better spread out the necessary information. There's plenty of ways to add a visual component to dialogue, and Fate: Zero chose not to attempt any. I was also disappointed in how even then some parts are a bit confusing without outside research into the novel/Type-Moon universe. It's fine (great even) if that knowledge enchances the story, but it being nearly necessary at some points (like Kariya's death) means the show could've done a better job at conveying information. |
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