Forum - View topicMaria the Virgin Witch (TV).
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3653 |
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Could you maybe explain what was reframed, and how, then? Because that's exactly what I was hoping for, and didn't get. And your characterization of what I was expecting is ridiculously incorrect.
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ChibiKangaroo
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No, you can't 
@jroa This ending absolutely required sarcasm. Sometimes an ending actually tries to address some of the problems that existed earlier in the show. A perfect example of that is the ending to season 1 of Tokyo Ghoul. Even though I criticized the ending of that show for its execution, I still gave it "props" for attempting to address a major earlier problem. MtVW doesn't even attempt to do that. Like I said, the start of the episode framed the whole thing. She simply re-affirmed what she had already been practicing before with her "everyone just pursue their own happiness, and everyone will be happy!" statement. That is so simple-minded, but it totally encompasses what is probably the major flaw of this entire series - it is a series with a very simple-minded approach and message, and most of the other flaws likely flow from that issue. |
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jroa
Posts: 538 |
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As I've tried to imply before, I am planning to write down my thoughts in detail later and would prefer to delay a proper response until then. But in any case...I believe you are referring to this:
I'll admit my language wasn't too clear here and could be taken the wrong way. Several individuals, not only yourself, have given the impression of wanting Maria's character to change and realize her ideals are just too naive for this world. I believe that was a fair expectation to have in the first place. But in the context of where the story has ended up, I think that expectation needs to be modified and tempered, since none of the last couple of developments have indicated that a huge change was due. |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 253 |
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Just seen the last episode. My word that was odd. Don't think I liked it much - though it did at least disprove my previous comments that this was basically a regular fantasy series, in the vein of Slayers, Chaika etc. It was way too weird for that. Felt like a touch of author wish-fulfillment going on?
Very mixed feelings about this show in hindsight. At the half-way point it was looking truly excellent, but the second half has been a long string of disappointments for me, with increasingly sloppy writing. I'd been wondering if the cause was over-compression due to the need to fit the source material into a 1-cour show, but the sheer oddness of the ending can't be explained by that (unless somebody tells me that the ending is anime-original - I've not read the source material). Maybe I'm missing the point here. I'm open to alternative explanations, but right now I have a bad taste in my mouth. |
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jroa
Posts: 538 |
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You are free to maintain that position. Most of the time, I consider sarcasm to be less than useful and rather counter-productive. At the same time, I think the last episode focused on what was the single most important theme of the series in the eyes of its characters and either explicitly or implicitly tied a bunch of ideas around it. Taking that into consideration, I found the conclusion both logical from a purely internal perspective and satisfying for me as a viewer. We appear to absolutely disagree about what was or wasn't implied here, but I can agree that not every topic was covered. This means some of the more complex problems have, as a matter of fact, not received an answer...which I believe could hardly hope to be succinctly provided in the first place. Certainly not too likely within the span of a twelve episode story, in my opinion, and not without making the anime (and the main character) unrecognizable from its manga counterpart in the process. For better or for worse, the anime played around with adding certain nuances to the picture, but remained quite faithful to its source and its inherent simplicity to the end. Even if the show had decided to spell out certain things, I do not believe that would necessarily be satisfying without more build up to them. Therefore, I believe the choices made by both the original author and the anime staff are imperfect but far from inappropriate. Last edited by jroa on Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:26 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23878 |
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I disagree that he became an afterthought after his prison encounter with Maria. There were always a number of antagonists arrayed against her: Bernard, Galfa, Gilbert, Le Comte, Michael most prominently. As I already explained, as far as he was concerned, once she was captured, his part in her story was over. I appreciated the fact that he wasn't portrayed as a stereotypically bloody-minded villain who exulted in her pain. Instead, he - and I'll admit I don't quite grasp the mental gymnastics yet; perhaps things will become clearer once I listen to the dub - underwent an evolution in his thinking about religion based on his encounter with her. Before, he was a religious bureaucrat, dutifully fulfilling his job, but not, I sense, really embracing the faith bits. I interpret that he genuinely believed it was to society's benefit to follow the word of God but he was refreshingly undogmatic about how this is achieved. He was more than willing to work with Maria, if she was amenable. She wasn't. So, ever practical, he was prepared to use underhanded methods to bring about her downfall. His breakdown in her cell showed that he was, despite outward appearances, a tightly wound dude and over-intellectual in his approach to faith. So he comes up with this own approach to faith that takes "faith" out of the equation and replaces it with "reason." Or what he considers reason. I find all of that very interesting. You may not, but by the same token to airily dismiss his character as some loon the show doesn't take seriously is both wildly simplistic and unnecessarily uncharitable. All of it wrapped up in your characteristic, "you'd have to be crazy not to think the way I do!" charm. 
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jroa
Posts: 538 |
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The anime is not a panel by panel adaptation, to say the least, but the manga only has three volumes and the ending is essentially the same. In other words, it was not really a matter of sheer compression since there isn't exactly a metric ton of content left behind or anything of the sort. |
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Stark700
 Posts: 11762 Location: Earth |
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Overall, this was an impressive series. Glad to see the finale concluded the main story without a big question mark and that spoiler[Michael finally accepts Maria after hearing some opinions from the others.]
This show has just been a refreshing journey with good production, comedy, and in general storytelling with its characters. Rating it very good! |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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I am really on the same page with this and this is probably the best thing you have written in quite a while. Bernard's denouement was perfectly consistent with his prior behavior although I can well understand people's confusion about it. The dialog in Maria's cell was just too simplistic to unhinge him so quickly and they really could have come up with some more potent arguments there. But if you can look past that Bernard is an excellent character.
Michael's words and actions seem to indicate that from his view he has absolutely no choice in what he does. From his point of view he spoiler[didn't change it was Maria that changed and hence became acceptable to the natural order.] I thought it interesting that Ezekiel spoiler[could no longer serve heaven once it was demonstrated that she had free will.] That should tell you a lot about where Michael is coming from. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I think many of the most effective media reviews I have ever read contained sarcasm. It didn't matter if the reviewer was praising or slamming a movie/show, the sarcasm often makes the review more relatable and less pretentious. It's because most of the time, people who produce movies/shows (anime or otherwise) are very imperfect people, so they often rely on tropes and trends that are easily satirized. MtVW is no different (again, unless you are one of those who think it IS perfect ). Laughing about such things is exactly what I think we should do. That doesn't mean we can't take a show seriously, as there are many very serious intellectual debates that can still be had, but you have to be able to lighten up and point out certain things that are a bit absurd.
If you look at the different things I put in those spoilers, many of them just highlight different parts of the episode where something that was a bit over-the-top or somewhat absurd was thrown out there. Like, for example, Maria spoiler[declaring that "she forgives God,"] and the whole reaction of spoiler[Michael and God to her arrogance being to give in and acknowledge her.] That kind of thing seems so ridiculous in the context of Church teachings. Humility is one of the most powerful forces in Christianity. You see it everywhere. It is one of the highest virtues. The idea that someone could be arrogant and spoiler[cause God/Michael to back down in the face of that arrogance is very absurd.] So that's the type of thing that I think should be mocked, because there is no way that could conceivably happen. Same thing with the fact that spoiler[a village full of people that had just been stoning and trying to burn Maria at the stake would suddenly do a 180 and have a big festival for her and dance in the streets once she comes to town.] That is totally absurd. Theron was one of the people praising this show for "historical accuracy." That type of plot development is so outside the bounds of historical accuracy that I don't think there is a proper description for where it is. It is wishful thinking of the highest order. So yea, there was just a lot of absurd stuff that you have to be able to laugh at. Unless we are just supposed to take everything we saw there so deadly serious and think this show is a completely accurate representation of this time/place in history.
I certainly agree with you about that. The last episode did try to bring focus on the primary theme, which Maria stated at the start of the episode. "If everyone tries to find their own happiness, everyone will be happy." That was the message. Maria's happiness is using her powers to stop fights and being with Joseph. She'll keep doing that until the end of days, and God/Michael won't stop her (because of plot armor). And as long as she keeps doing that, everyone will be happy. Villagers will dance in the streets. That was the message. She never had to acknowledge that one person's happiness can cause negative consequences for other people's happiness, and the story wraps everything up in a nice bow so the audience doesn't have to either.
This is a point that I can be totally on board with. This was a one cour show. I understand that. Maybe they didn't have enough time to address all of the flaws. I can totally understand that and I think anyone should keep that in mind when talking about a one cour show. That being said, I won't ignore the flaws either. If they are there, I'll talk about them, even if the writers just didn't have time to fix it all. Run-time was also a problem for Akame ga Kill! That show had two cours, but it still couldn't get everything executed at a high level. As much as I enjoyed that show, it was clearly a problem.
Yea, his part of the story was over, and then they made him an afterthought. I don't think there is anything inconsistent in those two statements. They seem to be in agreement with each other. I do agree with you that it was a positive that they didn't portray Bernard as some blood/guts obsessed freak. That would have been even more off the mark. However, he was still portrayed as an obsessive and cruel person with pretty much no redeeming features. I was hoping that, instead of having him descend into madness, they would show him becoming more calculating and more effective as a villain. OR, if they wanted to redeem him, they could have taken that path. Instead though, after he orchestrates Maria's brutal downfall, he just loses it due to some simple-minded stuff she tells him. It was so awkward, and diminished him severely in my opinion.
I don't think we were ever given any real demonstration of exactly what he believed. That was part of the problem. He seemed dogmatic, but at the same time he seemed open to working with Maria. But the guy was initially made out to be such a nebulous, mysterious character that as far as we know everything he ever said was a lie. He was like some crooked politician, constantly saying whatever he needed to say at that particular moment to advance his agenda. That was what we were left with when he approached Maria in the prison cell. Then, she says some simplistic argument about human independence and he loses all touch with reality. It just didn't make sense. I don't know if you've watched the show House of Cards? Bernard, pre-prison conversion was basically Frank Underwood. Saying and doing whatever it takes, even raping and killing. Had they continued him on that path, and shown him to be more of a brilliant schemer, I might have come around to seeing him as an effective antagonist. I just think his descent into madness ruined that. |
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jroa
Posts: 538 |
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On the contrary, I think that scene implicitly suggested the God of this fictional world has a sense of humor and is probably way more chill about Maria than Michael. spoiler[Maria was simply teasing Michael about "forgiving" God as a final remark, after making her argument, but the Archangel clearly found the thought of it to be absurd. In reality, Maria has acknowledged God's authority at least tacitly rather than attempting to seriously rebel against it. All her bravado and charm can't hide that much of the episode was about the Archangel processing information from multiple sources in order to decide whether or not Maria deserved to be forgiven for violating the letter of the law (yet, ironically enough, she may have always been following the spirit of it). ] I think you shouldn't make the mistake of confusing the city where Maria was almost burned to death with the village right outside her hut. The villagers had only reluctantly turned against Maria, more out of doubt and obligation than hatred, yet Martha herself was clearly in pain when throwing that stone. It wasn't in any way, shape or form a "180 turn" in their opinion, so your premise is flawed. Those who had smiled and laughed at her execution where people from the city who, presumably, never had much close contact with her in the first place. Therefore, I do not believe you are correct in this respect. Also, in case you may have overlooked this angle of the situation, I think the ending very much directly implied that spoiler[Maria is going to lose her magical powers by choosing to give birth to the reincarnation of Ezekiel. ] Thus, it isn't likely that she will literally continue to act in the same manner even if her own ideals do remain unchanged. That suggests a change in ability, to say the least. What's more, I believe Michael himself did distinctly state a small warning that seems to conflict with your interpretation that nobody from the Heavens would ever try to stop Maria under any circumstances. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Whether or not one presumes that God has such a "sense of humor," it wouldn't at all excuse Maria's repeated actions of arrogantly flouting every single thing that God is apparently compelling her to do. It would be like, if you were a parent and you told your kid "Hey honey, don't play with fire." And then your kid keeps playing with fire over and over and over again right in front of you, arrogantly saying they'll keep doing it. Then when you try to discipline them they say "Don't worry, I'll forgive you for disciplining me" and "I don't care what you say, I'm gonna keep playing with fire." Then your response is to chuckle and say "Ahh! What a scamp! Okay dear, looks like you got me!" Come now, that is absurd. If God was serious enough about the policies we've seen thus far to be smiting people on the spot for disobeying, would he really just laugh it all off in the end and be like "Oh, how do you solve a problem like Maria? Ha Ha Ha Ha. What a scamp she is! Oh well, guess I can't do anything to stop her!"
spoiler[She told Michael to his face that she wouldn't stop rebelling against them, ever. And God's response was to say "Oh well! Now we'll just make her a "part of the natural law, and she'll be our neighbor."] Again, it was like a parent giving in to a child who says they will never stop rebelling.
Such reluctance was never shown. The show has never indicated that any of the other villagers other than Martha and Anne even like Maria. Instead, most of the time when they were shown to be talking about her it was in negative terms. When Bernard/Gilbert dragged her to the town to be stoned, no one was shown to be reluctant except Martha and Anne, and maybe Anne's parents but I can't even remember if they were shown to have any sympathy for Maria. Everyone else was happy to send her off to be burned at the stake. I'm not confusing the city where she was to be burned with that town. Both were shown to be very much against Maria.
I do agree that there is the implication that spoiler[Maria will lose her powers after she gives birth to Ezekiel.] However, that didn't change the way things were resolved between Maria and God/Michael. She still remained as ideological as she had been previously and just as arrogant, and essentially "won" a victory against God. I think, again, there is just so much wishful thinking with her characterization and how it played out here. This show did seem to have an overt agenda of criticizing the Church by having this unimpeachable character Maria stand up to God and "win." I'm not wholly opposed to such a concept being done, but when the protagonist does it through pure arrogance and "superiority," I think it becomes a very crude wish-fulfillment story. |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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Not absurd -- not all of it. You don't know what God wants any more than Maria and if you think you do then you are as guilty of arrogance as you are accusing Maria of being. (And yet I don't see any Moderators much less God stepping on you.) The key line of dialog in this instance is Michael saying spoiler["what an amusing child"] which pretty much settles it. And Michael/God always kept a light hand were Maria was concerned, not just then. He never said or implied anything about not being able to stop her. If anything was established by Michael in this finale it is who is boss around here.
People think things like that all the time and God never seems to mind. Why should Maria be any different. And she did spoiler[win a pretty substantial victory: acceptance in return for acknowledgement. Even the entire human church was brought to heel at her account. Given that Michael could have obliterated the lot of them at will it can't be called anything but a victory if not vindication.] As for the powers thing, at the end it was pretty clear that Maria expected spoiler[to live her life as both a human and as a witch. I read that as she keeps her powers.] And the conversation between Michel and Cernunnos pretty clearly established spoiler[that she is on par with a Celtic deity of sorts where she will live a long time then end up as a non-corporeal being.] Michael had no objection to that. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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You're right, I don't know what God wants, but I didn't just put out a show illustrating exactly what God supposedly thinks and wants - a show that sharply contradicts how the Church has represented God. That's the criticism I'm making - not that this show is delving into such portrayals of God, it's more about the show doing a piss-poor job of it
Thank you. I'm glad that even a fan of the show can recognize this (even though it should be obvious to everyone). We simply disagree on whether this objective was achieved via a well constructed and consistent narrative. |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 253 |
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This show gets a lot easier to understand if you take the position that the author probably did most of the research for medieval Christian doctrine on Wikipedia.
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