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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:32 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:

Oh yeah, it's a "complete story, with a complete ending"... sort of. In that it takes its strong female lead,spoiler[ turns her into a brainless pawn of evil], has a horribly anticlimactic final battle, and an ending which ultimately says that everything that happened in the entire series was completely meaningless, because no matter how much you fight the forces of evil, spoiler[God is a dick who will just bring villains back from the dead for no apparent reason.] It spits on its characters, it spits on its own conflict, it spits on its audience for caring.
Erm in the Christian religion spoiler[God has no control over demons, or devils, or anything under the control of Lucifer as he is now just as powerful as God, 'tis the reason he rejected God's reign in heaven in the first place. It's all in Genesis. Also even though he was plotting against both hell, and heaven, there is no clear indication that Aion was killed in that final battle so he obviously had somehow survived to return with yet another plan involving Pope John-Paul.] So if that is what has put you off Chrono Crusade then perhaps you might have been just spitting in the wind. Wink
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:43 pm Reply with quote
LordRedhand wrote:
Each of those actions make them take a serious look at your market

Our local companies usually use R1 sales as a means of deciding upon licenses to acquire. They also appear to listen to fan requests online, though they tend not to express any stern views on how local fans come to desire the releases they do.

Quote:
As to the knock to the "know yourself" how do you determine what to watch and buy? You take in themes, stories, genres, artists, studios, directors.. all of those elements and more go into a decision to buy a series.

Whilst this principle would certainly preferable from the perspective of a global industry, it is even harder to adhere to it in smaller countries: the comparatively higher price of obtaining most titles increases the amount one would inadvertently waste upon buying something one fails to enjoy.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3492
Location: Back stateside
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:44 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
Erm in the Christian religion spoiler[God has no control over demons, or devils, or anything under the control of Lucifer as he is now just as powerful as God, 'tis the reason he rejected God's reign in heaven in the first place. It's all in Genesis. Also even though he was plotting against both hell, and heaven, there is no clear indication that Aion was killed in that final battle so he obviously had somehow survived to return with yet another plan involving Pope John-Paul.] So if that is what has put you off Chrono Crusade then perhaps you might have been just spitting in the wind. Wink


CRITICAL RESEARCH FAILURE.

You've clearly never read the Bible and know nothing about Christianity. The story of the fall of Satan is nowhere spelled out in the Bible, especially not in the book of Genesis (Satan is mentioned three times in the Hebrew scriptures, in Job, Chronicles, and Zechariah). And the idea that Lucifer is as powerful as God?!?!??! No, for dualism like that you'd have to go with the Manicheans.

Besides, if you know about the prophecies spoiler[of which the assassination attempt is a part], none of the stuff in Chrono Crusade is in them, so clearly it's not meant to be in our timeline (I think we would remember spoiler[downtown San Fransisco being destroyed by demons]), which makes the ending EVEN STUPIDER.

Edit: or were you just making fun of how badly anime tends to mangle Christian theology?
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:04 pm Reply with quote
vashfanatic wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
Erm in the Christian religion spoiler[God has no control over demons, or devils, or anything under the control of Lucifer as he is now just as powerful as God, 'tis the reason he rejected God's reign in heaven in the first place. It's all in Genesis. Also even though he was plotting against both hell, and heaven, there is no clear indication that Aion was killed in that final battle so he obviously had somehow survived to return with yet another plan involving Pope John-Paul.] So if that is what has put you off Chrono Crusade then perhaps you might have been just spitting in the wind. Wink


CRITICAL RESEARCH FAILURE.

You've clearly never read the Bible and know nothing about Christianity. The story of the fall of Satan is nowhere spelled out in the Bible, especially not in the book of Genesis (Satan is mentioned three times in the Hebrew scriptures, in Job, Chronicles, and Zechariah). And the idea that Lucifer is as powerful as God?!?!??! No, for dualism like that you'd have to go with the Manicheans.
You should try reading an unabridged version. Those "Hebrew scriptures" are also known as The Old Testament.

Quote:
Besides, if you know about the prophecies spoiler[of which the assassination attempt is a part], none of the stuff in Chrono Crusade is in them, so clearly it's not meant to be in our timeline (I think we would remember spoiler[downtown San Fransisco being destroyed by demons]), which makes the ending EVEN STUPIDER.
So you're looking for factual realism? In something like Chrono Crusade? No wonder you're in a strop. Rolling Eyes
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:02 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
You should try reading an unabridged version. Those "Hebrew scriptures" are also known as The Old Testament.

*thunk* *thunk* *thunk*
Okay, the reference to the Hebrew scriptures is because you said the book of Genesis, which is in the Hebrew scriptures. (also, to millions of Jews they are the unabridged version)

But the New Testament doesn't have the story of Satan's fall spelled out either. I mean, it says he fell, but the details on it, including WHY, are a construction of disparate passages that only developed as a secondary narrative in the Middle Ages.

And the idea that somehow the devil is now as powerful as God and completely out of God's control is nowhere in the New Testament. At all. In fact, it makes it very clear that demons are entirely under the control of God, since one can compel them in God's name. Christianity would have the devil, as a fallen angel, be no more powerful than the strongest unfallen angel - nowhere near the equal of God (assuming you even interpret the devil as a being rather than a metaphor for the persistence of evil, which many Christians do, but obviously is irrelevant for a story with demons).

I thought for sure you were joking, but I guess you really don't know jack squat about Christianity.
Quote:
So you're looking for factual realism? In something like Chrono Crusade? No wonder you're in a strop. Rolling Eyes

No, I'm looking for sense-making. Factual realism is obviously irrelevant in a fantasy setting, but trying to pretend that a fantasy setting is somehow our universe whilst having all sorts of blatant contradictions with our universe, without even bothering to hand-wave as "it was all going on in the shadows," is really, really stupid. And just another reason why the anime's ending is one of the worst ever written. (okay, there are probably much worse, but I really hate the ending!)

The manga, which I later read, has none of these issues since it turns out that (1) this is not our timeline, and (2) spoiler[the demons aren't Christian demons anyway].

Wow, I really managed to get this thread out of the fansubs: evil or not? cul de sac quickly, didn't I? Laughing
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:47 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:

Our local companies usually use R1 sales as a means of deciding upon licenses to acquire. They also appear to listen to fan requests online, though they tend not to express any stern views on how local fans come to desire the releases they do.


I would say part of that is our relationship with each of our respective media outlets, we import yours, you import ours aspect. But still it's not a 1 to 1 relationship and the companies in your area are giving an honest try at it, because they think it's worth it. As think about it saying your market is poor and has little or no value is not the most compelling of case or argument to make for someone to sell to you, regardless of what it is they are actually selling, they would ask where is the value for me in that venture? So gotta make it bigger and as fan find a way to make it happen.

Quote:

Whilst this principle would certainly preferable from the perspective of a global industry, it is even harder to adhere to it in smaller countries: the comparatively higher price of obtaining most titles increases the amount one would inadvertently waste upon buying something one fails to enjoy.


With an online market and shipping that becomes less of an issue but is still a principle that can be applied to a local or smaller market. Buying what you like sends a message that you want more of it, not buying sends the negative that you don't. And sometimes failure in getting something you don't like is necessary else how do you learn what you do and don't like without a tangible loss? In short a need for the change of the circumstances is in order and in order to do that both sides must act, the industry is trying and doing their part now we as fans have to do ours

As to vashfanatic's points.. you need to learn something about the process of sales. As for example if you feel that anime is not worth buying and you talk to someone in a kind of "sales" pitch about it, those who you are pitching will feel that. However on the other side if you feel excited, if you feel that anime is worth buying they will feel that too. So mind control no, sales technique yes.

As to Chrno Crusade, call to read the old testament is that it's themes it touches upon are greater there than in the new and that both are parts of the Christian narrative... to discount that part is to not fully understand what you are calling for others to understand. The book of Job.. it's concepts on evil and sufferring prove relevant to this narrative it story suffering happens and is a test in which both Rosette and Chrono failed, despairing in which they both lost hope, lost faith and became in impatient and reckless in their decisions, in the end sacrificing so much and even in their victory they were still in despair, their own sacrifice and despair in themselves causing them to choose death because they felt they did not belong anywhere, thus a representing their loss whereas say Azmaria suffered with them and experienced similar loses and still had hope and was willing to keep working for it and towards that world. Rosette and Chrono in their actions and eventual fate did not.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:15 pm Reply with quote
aeris2001x2 wrote:
The Anime has already been shown on Japanese TV. So me watching a fan sub is the same as my friend taping the latest episode of Lost and then lending me the tape. Is that wrong? And if anyone says it is, have you never borrowed a show recorded off the TV before?


Whether its right or wrong depends on your value system. If you are down with being a parasite, whether benign or malignant, then in neither case would you see anything wrong.

In many moral and ethical systems, they are both equally wrong, in a purely hedonist system, not so much.

If you are a pragmatist, the fact that the Japanese telecast covers a smaller share of the production cost and the US telecast covers the majority of the cost of a US production would make a difference, since the impact of indermining international rights income is more severe (1) the closer the entertainment industry in question is to the bare margin of survival and (2) the more reliance the entertainment industry in question is on international rights income and (3) the smaller the total market size (market, not audience).

Since (1) the Japanese anime industry is closer to the edge than the US live television drama industry, (2) the Japanese industry is more reliant on rights income and (3) it has a smaller total market that it is relying on for its survival, obviously the same action undermining the market does more damage to the anime industry.
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:22 pm Reply with quote
LordRedhand wrote:
So gotta make it bigger and as fan find a way to make it happen.

In short a need for the change of the circumstances is in order and in order to do that both sides must act, the industry is trying and doing their part now we as fans have to do ours.

What do you have in mind?
I request that you be as specific as you possibly can in explaining yourself, for your prior suggestions have been too vague to solve numerous problems specific to industries such as mine.

I remain sceptical as to whether local fans, or even local distributors, can themselves make changes in such a way as to bring the health of their industry up to the comparatively high standard of that in R1. I am afraid to say that a fan-lead campaign — wherein contributors educate and motivate others to start contributing — is far too unrealistic to be tenable, given constraints of time, money and geography. Were it plausible, it would already have been put into motion by local fan networks.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:03 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
I remain sceptical as to whether local fans, or even local distributors, can themselves make changes in such a way as to bring the health of their industry up to the comparatively high standard of that in R1. I am afraid to say that a fan-lead campaign — wherein contributors educate and motivate others to start contributing — is far too unrealistic to be tenable, given constraints of time, money and geography. Were it plausible, it would already have been put into motion by local fan networks.


I would like UK fans to launch a crusade to get MangaUK, Beez and etc. to allow streaming on Crunchyroll of titles they have licensed where the R1 license holder has uploaded it to Crunchyroll.

Not on any theory that it would launch a Renaissance and Era of Anime Enlightenment in the UK, but just to mute the whinging by UK fans who get almost blanket access to the simulcasts so they have to find something else to whinge about.

So that there would be a purely hedonistic wish.
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:09 pm Reply with quote
I believe personally that to answer your question Zin5ki that a kinda of malaise has fallen onto the fandom, a belief that anime is not worth anything.. as some have demonstrated.

To think of it in another way it is that of what my church does in mission work, we try to go beyond just giving food, although that is indeed good. It is building up education centers, it's teaching farming and domestication techniques. To try to do more than just give food as that doesn't change the situation on the ground but to change the situation itself where those ills occur.

This to can be applied to anime and the industry itself (although the food thing frankly weighs more heavily upon me, people die for want of food, I have yet to hear the same for entertainment.) Basically putting anime online for legal streaming is good, however it does not solve the ills that face the industry nor it's fandom, so while it is a step that is all it is, a step. As the problem persists above that anime has no value, if it has no value if it disappear they will not be sad. Some anime fans have stated this through analogy, likening the industry to a roller coaster, exciting yes, but on a rail and they always end. That perception of time is fatalistic in nature a present based concept of time, a measure of time that is in the now, that goes by the second and those in it get angry when thing slow down (Whole cultures and cities can be like this too.) That concept of time is incapable of making change or seeing itself as a change agent, because it doesn't look to the future (why it's fated?) and doesn't look to the past to see the past failures.

Sop yes the method I propose would be hard, that there would be set backs. But I believe there are fans that do not lack the motivation, that there are fans who will make the time and find the money. We can actually see it happening.. fans making blogs, videos, and holding panels.. so it's not a foreign concepts... even the form our own company and do it is not something outrageous as a group of fans have done so, fairly recently as well. (We can debate how good their release is but that is not diminish the point that they have. So it's a matter of perception of time, to change fans should try to take actions now to build a better future or to look into the past to find a way forward (For example a pay by episode/chapter is not a new concept and for every anime fan that hearkens back to those authors who worked under that system in a now mindset don't realize they are calling upon old systems in new ways)

So in essence yes the industry must and is changing but we as a fandom need to change with it as we are the ones that are the unbending oak right now.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:24 pm Reply with quote
LordRedhand wrote:
So in essence yes the industry must and is changing but we as a fandom need to change with it as we are the ones that are the unbending oak right now.


Hogwash. The industry - the Japanese but especially the North American - is only just catching up to where the fandom was two or three years ago. Which is why simulcasting is fairly new, even though I and others argued years ago that there was no reason it couldn't have been done long before. Heck, I even exclaimed two years ago that there is no reason in this day and age that releasing the English dub simultaneously with the broadcast couldn't be done, at least from a technical issue.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:23 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:

This analogy makes absolutely no sense. It's not even a remotely similar situation. Anyone who thinks they're more likely to find love by going to a prostitute is an idiot. On the other hand, you're clearly a lot more open to checking out a show if it's free where as you would be a lot less likely to buy it right off the bat. There's also no beneficiary in the prostitute scenario. Nobody benefits but you and I guess the prostitute. It would be equivalent to piracy that benefits you and the person making pirated content available. That ignores the whole point of what I'm saying though which is that in this scenario it may help the industry. There is no element analogous to the industry in your example so of course the potential justification doesn't apply.


I am almost constantly reminded of Black Sabbath's "Heaven & Hell" when people discuss this topic.
"They'll tell you black is really white
The moon is just the sun at night
And when you walk in golden halls you get to keep the gold that falls"
Particularly if it's anime.

I said I wasn't arguing right or wrong.
My argument is using a criminal/grey area act to make decisions in one's life is not a valid excuse. This person & anyone else who uses fansubs are doing it. So the assuage their conscience saying they buy SOME of what they watch for free is exactly that.
How is it not similar? Just as many people believe marijuana should be legalized many people believe prostitution should be legalized (myself included), but right now it is an illegal act & using an illegal act-as I also pointed out shoplifting-to shop for what one wants to purchase is not a valid shopping method.
It doesn't matter if 3/4ths of the people who do it purchase something anime related, it never makes it ok. This person could use other means to pick anime than what most people see as a very grey area. Drop the excuses & just accept one is doing something a bit shady. When I speed, I know damn well a cop might pull me over & give me a ticket. I accept this consequence. We have street sweeping & I have on 2 occasions forgotten the day & been given a ticket--that's on ME, not the city nor the meter maid.
Do you see my point now?
The customers who put money in the tip jars at most of the joints I see with a tip jar don't seem to be putting in near what the workers would get were they working a traditional restaurant tipping situation. Most of the jars I see have a buck or 2 in them.
Can you prove this isn't the same with downloaders buying anime?

ikillchicken wrote:
You're right. All those pirates need to stop sucking up our tax dollars!

When did I say pirates were sucking up tax dollars?
Other than the ones the FBI go after & nail.
We CAN agree the FBI is paid with tax dollars, right?
ikillchicken wrote:
Except they don't actually do that. Once again, this analogy makes no sense. All you're doing is tossing out unrelated instances of people making excuses and then picking them apart. That's fine for those instances but there's no logical basis to extend it to other cases just because the excuse is similar. The validity of an justification may vary depending on what it is used to justify.

So let me ask again: Explain why is it that piracy in this scenario (not drugs, not prostitution, piracy) is not acceptable?

Yen Press has stated when they sent out the cease & desist letters, their sales went up, strongly suggesting piracy IS impacting the industry negatively. This means no matter how many people ARE buying something, the ones who do apparently do not equal those that don't.

Now YOU say "I don't accept that's true because I believe the random fans out there saying they support the industry outweighs the leeches" because there is no solid proof. It is all estimates, isn't it? You would have to do some sort of anime census to ask every anime fan out there about their activities-downloading vs purchases- & that is NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER going to happen.
ikillchicken wrote:
Surely though there are enough leeches out there to support these pirate sites on their own. Even if all the potentially justified pirates stopped pirating it's not like pirate sites would disappear so what does it matter?

Just give up?
So why do we need cops? Crimes are going to be committed & criminals get away with crimes all the time, so look at all the tax money we saved if we just dissolved the entire government & left every person to themselves?
roxybudgy wrote:
And I'm betting that if that leech were to suddenly find themselves unable to download any anime at all, they would go download music, or go play a computer game, rather than rush off to the nearest DVD store to buy anime. I just don't get why some people still insist that every epiode download = lost sale.

True, yet Yen Press claim their sales went up, so enough did choose to buy the titles once they were removed.
roxybudgy wrote:
As for myself, I've done it all: download anime and manga, buy anime and manga, and translate for fansub/scanlation groups. I don't make excuses for downloading, I do it because I can and because I want to (as long as I'm not going to be arrested for it, I'll keep doing it).

Thank you.
This is my point. The whole "previewing" thing is an excuse. You're either doing it or not, but don't whine "I buy something".
I'm older. I have the values I was taught as a child. My husband who was 4 yrs older than myself did not share those values & did his share of 5 finger discounts from work, etc. He had his excuses (they weren't paying him enough. They had a bunch so they won't miss this. Put the money in the newspaper machine & take 2 papers because he was getting somethig for nothing. Whatever)
Mohawk52 wrote:

Erm in the Christian religion spoiler[God has no control over demons, or devils, or anything under the control of Lucifer as he is now just as powerful as God, 'tis the reason he rejected God's reign in heaven in the first place. It's all in Genesis. Also even though he was plotting against both hell, and heaven, there is no clear indication that Aion was killed in that final battle so he obviously had somehow survived to return with yet another plan involving Pope John-Paul.] So if that is what has put you off Chrono Crusade then perhaps you might have been just spitting in the wind. Wink

This is what I mean about the Japanese often seem to have no real grasp on christianity. More often than not God is the bad guy & it's the devils/demons who want what's best for people.
They seem REAL good on getting the vengeance, but not so hot on the love & forgiveness side.
Vash-
not christian demons? I thought everything that wasn't of god was deemed pagan/demon. Odin is a demon. God knows enough historial stuff was destroyed by christians over the centuries in the name of it being pagan/evil/satanic.
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bob51



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:06 pm Reply with quote
I'd care and all to make a nice elaborate post around here following the current discussion you're all having, but it seems like a clusterfuck of On/Off topic that I do not want to filter, that being said,I guess I'll start.

So what was it all about in the start? The morality of illegal downloading, and such? I hope so, because if it isn't I guess this whole post is moot. In any case.

So first of all, and I think this has been mentioned before, the base of this "problem" would lie in the definition of what is morally wrong in this situation, which of course can't be the same for everyone, we all have had a different upbringing after all. So I would hope that by this point, we can all agree with all have different morals, right? I don't think that anyone around here has a right to tell anyone else that his own values are "more right" than another person's. I guess that by this I just wanted to set you up for saying that it all ends up being as valid as your opinions, worthless to others, really, it could make you think and make others reconsider but it ends up just being that, you cannot force it on anyone else, I've probably skimmed a few of those in this thread.

And as for what I would think my policy would be, similar to a trial I guess, watch and download everything, if I really enjoy a show it's worth a download, now, am I actually going to respect that? Of course not, I don't think it's morally right, but I still won't do it.

I guess the best way I could put it is

http://users.ameritech.net/rayder/download_car.jpg

And you just replace the car by Anime and oh wait.

Honestly, I don't think the impact of myself buying any products will affect the industry, does it? Of course it does, and a lot of people probably think like me, or don't give a fudge, I'm probably the latter I guess, but I'm fairly sure that generally at most if everyone shares this ideology, we'll just end up killing anime in the western world, I don't believe it'll affect the production of anime in the fatherland, which is all that matters really, not that I watch any dubs.

Actually this is an extra thought I guess but talking about dubs reminded me, why would I be paying for the dubs I won't watch? That paying a bunch of voice actors and editing etc for something I don't need, I would be more comfortable buying copies which only have subs and original dubs.

Actually this post started as an excuse to post a video of what I think is the average "Hurr I buy all my anime" fanboy, but I didn't get a chance to do that, so I left it for the end.

Posting videos to specifically personally attack anyone, whether they be users on this forum or otherwise, is not allowed.

^ Or apparently I cannot, but I believe it wasn't in the intention to specifically attack, but let people realize how ridiculous can be, I wasn't openly flaming, but whatever, I'll say.


Last edited by bob51 on Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:06 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
LordRedhand wrote:
So in essence yes the industry must and is changing but we as a fandom need to change with it as we are the ones that are the unbending oak right now.


Hogwash. The industry - the Japanese but especially the North American - is only just catching up to where the fandom was two or three years ago. Which is why simulcasting is fairly new, even though I and others argued years ago that there was no reason it couldn't have been done long before. Heck, I even exclaimed two years ago that there is no reason in this day and age that releasing the English dub simultaneously with the broadcast couldn't be done, at least from a technical issue.


I'm only guessing, but I'd guess that LordRedhand is talking about actions rather than about internet arguments.

Simulcasting is still new ... Fall 2009 was the first season with more than half of the shows being simulcast, even to the US, and the results were obviously not an immediate instant success, since the number of simulcasts ebbed, and only passed the Fall 2009 level in this current season. And of course, the streams that are simulcast by channels other the Crunchyroll are largely unavailable outside of North America.

Why the argument that something is technically feasible automatically implies the existence of a viable business model is a bit obscure ~ typically the technical viability is not the biggest hurdle in making money in a new channel.

As far as actions, I'm not seeing fans actions being quite so inflexible as LordRedhand nor as so progressive as you. Certainly somebody is supporting the legit streaming, since Crunchyroll in this past year reached breakeven. On the other hand, large number of bootleg leech streaming sites continue to compete head to head against legit streaming, without even a token effort to direct who have access to the legit stream to the legit site where watching the stream supports the creation of the work.
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zgripţuroicǎ



Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 140
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:39 pm Reply with quote
Guys, you should know better by now than to mention that you've ever watched fansubs (or even worse, that you still watch them) on ANN. If you do, it doesn't matter how you got them, or if you've purchased all the DVDs/Blu-rays (foreign and domestic), plushies, wallscrolls, OSTs and whatever other varied merch they come out with, you're still an evil leech who's killing the industry to most of the puritanical types who hang out on here. There are no shades of gray, doesn't matter if you live in a country that doesn't recognize copyright, or if you're the only person who speaks your language with a functioning computer and an internet connection, every problem the industry has in R1 is all your fault!

Honestly, LordRedhand, you seem to forget how many good ideas simply weren't profitable because the market couldn't be created. Just going with literature, art and music, there are myriad examples of excellent works that didn't sell more than a handful of copies until long after their creators had died in poverty and obscurity. In all your US-centric railing about how all the anime distributors here started the way you're mentioning, you overlook some pretty glaring issues. For one, Australia and New Zealand are Region 4. Combined, the two of them hardly make up one third of the population of one other nation in their region (Mexico, if you're interested). The vast majority of the countries in their region don't even speak English in any official capacity.

You also entirely ignore the issue of financing such a venture, aside from the naïve notion that it can all be made okay if you borrow some money from friends. This is not starting up a record store for the type of music you like, where you can borrow $50000 and run the thing yourself with no issues. Aside from the costs of obvious things, like DVD production, distribution, advertising costs, wages and equipment, there's also the tricky issue of financing licensing costs.

And as for your assertion that all distributors started off like this, BS. Geneon and Bandai were simply US branches of Japanese distributors from the start. Viz was bankrolled by Shogakukan. Funimation and Tokyopop are actually the only two I can think of that weren't either directly owned, or else heavily financed, by a Japanese parent company. What you are asking people to do is simply ridiculous.

And you can't just make a market appear out of nowhere for anything. There are tons of excellent foreign films, but in the US, they almost always flop, hard. Why? Because Americans typically can't be bothered to read (or should I say my compatriots often simply can't read?) while watching a film, and find them boring because they don't have giant explosions, drugs, and gratuitous sex behind every corner. If you really think it's so simple as scrounging up some money and "being a cheerleader" to make a market appear, sell your house, and borrow all the money you can from friends, because I've got a plane ticket for you to New Zealand. If it's honestly as doable as you say, and the rest of us are just lazy, whinging parasites, then I say either put your money where your mouth is, or stuff it.
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