Forum - View topicNEWS: Attack on Titan Franchise Halts Sales of Eldian Armbands
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jdnation
Posts: 2007 |
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This is one of those tricky things. Nothing inherently wrong with the merch idea. Most likely aimed at just collectors or cosplayers even with the context of it in the symbol.
On the other hand it approaches one of those social tripwires where you could be accused of insensitivity. Then the pile-on cometh. So it's not worth the hassle and cosplayers can simply make their own. Sadly there aren't that many ways to put out some Eldia merch, so they oughta just stick to the corps and military insignias. |
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harminia
 Posts: 2006 Location: australia |
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I'm not sure if it's still the case nor how widespread it was but an article from 2017 writes about how some history books had very biased/skewed information on WW2. So while kids did learn about WW2, numerous events (specifically anything that made Japan look bad) were skipped over. Another article from 2013 states; "it turned out only 19 of the book's 357 pages dealt with events between 1931 and 1945." An article from 2020 draws largely from the 2013 article. All this said, however, doesn't really excuse or justify the armband being made. Google exists, after all. |
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Piglet the Grate
 Posts: 576 Location: North America |
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The swastika was not banned in Germany due to input by persons from the Indian subcontinent who have used it as a good luck symbol for 5,000+ years. The Dene peoples of the SW USA have also been using the swastika as a positive symbol for thousands of years. The roots of the NSDAP (colloquially "Nazi") only date back to the late 18th Century. Muddies the decision on what is morally correct, since either banning or not banning will victimize one group (a compromise would be be to ban the angled swastika in a white circle on an orange background, since only the NSDAP used it in that manner). |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16939 |
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The problem is we can maintain that it's not a nazi symbol all we want, but if people keep using it as one then that's what it will be seen as. Giving the old A-ok sign (index finger touching the thumb to make an O with the other fingers up) was a harmless gesture. Beneficial even. Then a-holes wanted to appropriate it for themselves. Whether or not it started as a joke is meaningless given the end result. Apply that line of thinking here with the armband, or the iron cross. Even the swastika itself had meaning before what it came to be associated and known for. We can sit here all day and scream til we're blue in the face that these are not meant to be used in such a manner. It doesn't matter because they ARE being used in such a manner. Cue to the old saying of this is why we can't have nice things, a few ruining it for the many, or any other applicable saying. Is it fair? Nope. But then again life isn't fair and some a-holes like to ruin things for the rest of us. For me personally the issue with this particular case is the tone of what the armbands represented. Since Gundam was brought up as another example I would say the tone of that was much different. Intent does matter. It's that intent behind some that has ruined things, like the iron cross, for others. Plus the parallels between AOT and the armbands compared to Nazi Germany is far greater than any parallels between Gundam and the same thing. Last edited by Redbeard 101 on Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PseudoFiction
Posts: 95 |
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There's a recent ep of Behind the Bastards about how after WWII, the second tier leaders of the Japanese army, the one's actually responsible for the war crimes committed, were just let go because the US army had too much to handle and didn't really care after they got the top generals. After release they immediately go back into politics and their influence is very evident. |
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vampiyan
 Posts: 64 |
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They become good guys by the end of the arc though once Big Mom betrays them. Good and evil are relative in One Piece though. Most characters are just out for their own interests Luffy literally released hundreds of dangerous criminals from Impel Down just to find his brother, many of which joined up with Blackbeard and made him a bigger threat. |
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Piglet the Grate
Posts: 576 Location: North America |
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Symbols in and of themselves are not offensive, rather it is what they represent that can be offensive.
So what would a real world person wearing a Eldian armband intent to represent by it? That they are part of a persecuted minority (not offensive) or part of group that wants to dominate other groups (offensive)? Or merely that they want to cosplay a particular character who wore one (neutral)? The pink triangle comes to mind. Initially it was required to be worn by homosexual concentration camp inmates in the Third Reich (negative symbol); but now it is worn as a show of pride by some in the LGBT community (positive symbol). Which is the Eldian armband? N.b. Since this is the Internet, these questions are to help understand the meanings others are interpreting; not rhetorical questions intended to advance an argument. What makes interpretation difficult for me is that of the time Shingeki no Kyojin (Attack on Titan) is set in, the Eldian people (barring a few select elites) on both Paradis Island and in Marley only fight and kill due to being victims of propaganda. |
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Cardcaptor Takato
 Posts: 4881 |
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a_Bear_in_Bearcave
Posts: 514 Location: Poland |
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I actually disagree that it is "problematic" for Asian country to use their cultural symbols just because ignorant westerners can only recognize it (or in manji case mistake it ) as a (stolen) symbol of their own racist past, but here we aren't talking about censoring real millennia-old cultural and religious symbol of other culture, but about not commercializing fictional symbol based directly on Holocaust imagery, so I'll join the chorus of "Who thought it's a good idea?" in this case |
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Pandsu
 Posts: 187 |
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Personally, I'm conflicted on this one.
Usually I lean heavily towards the "it's just fiction" side of things, but I do realize that there is both a time and place for anything and that it's definitely a matter of context and execution that determines what's acceptable and what's not. And like many others here, my initial reaction was "who thought this was a good idea?" and that it's a bit tasteless and, if nothing else, just kind of a possible PR nightmare. But then I remembered how, a decade ago, they promoted the musical The Producers, when it came to Germany for the first time. They hung up very Nazi-looking red banners, with white circles in them, with the only difference being that instead of a black swastika in the middle, you'd find a black pretzel symbol (or apparently sausages as well but I don't remember seeing those). They had them as flags above stores and, the most insane part, had huge banners with them draped from the theater building, making it look like some kind of WW2-era German headquarters. Someone from the musical's cast went on TV in full Nazi getup, complete with the pretzel armband, to promote the musical and perform Springtime für Hitler. All of that sounds terribly insensitive and like it couldn't possibly end well. But, if I'm honest, I thought it was pretty funny and ballzy. And I usually don't find stuff funny just because it's edgy or offensive. But that just... kind of didn't feel anywhere close as bad as I would've thought it would. And I also don't remember there being much offense by the general public at the time, either. People talked about it, wondered if it's okay to make fun of such a serious historical thing, but the reaction wasn't any different from what you'd get with any other piece of entertainment coming out that deals with the second world war and related things. Which makes me wonder why my initial reaction to this merch was a more negative one. Now obviously the context is a completely different one. Who Mel Brooks is, as a person, his history but also his many accomplishments, contributed greatly to how I reacted then. And maybe it was just so out there, so ridiculous, just like the subject matter of the original film itself was, that nobody could possibly take it seriously and you just "can't be mad at it". But if I thought something so extreme as decorating a whole huge theater building with Nazi-like banners was okay, is it really reasonable for me to not be okay with something as comparatively small as Nazi-like cosplay merch? I don't know. Like I said, I'm conflicted. |
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louis6578
 Posts: 1866 |
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I get both sides, but I'm a little bummed at the fact that an easy piece of cosplay merchandise just got removed from shelves. Ah well. I guess there was no helping it in these tumultuous political times.
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animefan57892
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Why "offensive" is a thing in here? If you are a hammer, everything looks like nails to you. The arguments I see here is similar to Hate Speech. There's no clear-cut standard of Good/Bad or Right/Wrong (yet). Both sides of aisle have some good points.
So my stance is that I am not the arbiter of truth or morality. I don't get to decide what people like, buy or have. If you like or want to buy or wear the armband for whatever reason, I don't care about the motive and action at all. If you hate it, oppose it or find it offensive, you can boycott, express your opposition or whatever you want to do as long as it's not violence or threat of violence. Maybe by 2030 we will be all happy and just do as we are told. And this isn't an issue anymore. But for now, things are not settled yet. From the pure perspective of PR or business (making money worldwide), obviously "Who thought it's a good idea?". |
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Gem-Bug
 Posts: 1220 |
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I really don't understand the "oh no, cosplay merch ruined" angle, or why anyone would want to cosplay as an armband-wearing, persecuted character, especially since spoiler[all of the ones that are relevant to the story eventually lose/take them off. Like, why cosplay Gabi at her worst/most pitiful instead of after she grows as a person?].
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BonusStage
 Posts: 307 |
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I don't think the cosplay angle is much of a concern. An armband seems like something even a novice cosplayer could make pretty easily. And if not, a quick search on Etsy reveals there's a lot of people selling these already. |
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a_Bear_in_Bearcave
Posts: 514 Location: Poland |
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I've never seen The Producers, but isn't the pretzel thing making fun of Nazis, while armband would be basically straight up cosplaying Holocaust ? This is a huge difference in attitude, so it's totally normal to not treat it the same way, and I imagine draping huge building in Nazi pretzels and sausages can add to the joke. The whole thing with selling armbands is - what is the purpose? To earn money from symbol of Holocaust-like fictional event? To help people cosplay as Eldians, though I don't see how it would be that needed? I just don't see good reason for doing it with delicate subject except "we wanted to make money of it", while Mel Brooks probably had as a main reason "make fun of Nazis", which is actually good reason at least for me. It's similar to the case in Germany where some Antifa people were sued for using Nazi swastika symbol - crossed out in the "Nazi are forbidden" meaning, but it was still theoretically illegal, but German court decided they should have right to use swastika in anti-Nazi context (using it in religious and other traditional contexts is also totally legal in Germany, and should be so everywhere!). So, basically context matter a lot, and I think it's normal. |
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