Forum - View topicNEWS: French Man Gets 1-Year Sentence for 'Manga Pornography'
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Surrender Artist
 Posts: 3264 Location: Pennsylvania, USA |
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A fair point. I should have been more precise. Perhaps, "creating victims," rather than just, "acting upon," is better. In the absence of suffering inflicted upon a second party against that party's consent, I struggle to believe that a crime has been committed. I prefer that crime require a harmed party in order to restrict the power of the state to inflict punishment.
I don't agree with the necessity of that, at least not if the line is to be drawn by law, or under its auspices. Those lines are hard to erase and drawn by politics, not justice.
Awwww, man. Did you just Godwin this thread? Silencing Hitler wouldn't've stopped him. Weimar Germany was politically and economically unstable, trying to cope with cultural shocks from its defeat in the first world war, aching under the demands of the Treaty of Versailles and inherited a long history of European antisemitism. That Hitler could speak wasn't what caused the holocaust. Why, regardless, must the remedy be silencing rather than countering? What's more, I doubt the wisdom of trusting that the state will reliably know when to disapprove of what some people say and justly apply its power to silence them. The laws that would provide for those restrictions would ultimately be drawn by the same process of any ordinary law, thus the whole usual mess of collective action and political ignorance problems would define the outcome, which is to say that they will be written because some constituency wants it and can exert influence to get it enacted, not because it's right. |
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Gon*Gon
 Posts: 679 |
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Well either way, whether he's a real pedo or not, the important detail is that he fantasizes being raped, not the raping... |
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tygerchickchibi
 Posts: 1461 |
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As a former victim that went through the same thing, I'm saying that I don't agree with the court's decision. Everyone can have bad thoughts, but not everyone will exercise their ability to do it, because they know it's wrong, or that they really don't want to do it. It's like shooting games. I like shooting people, and I want to. But would I do it in real life? No. Reading a violent book will not necessarily make you violent. (shooting games aren't fun for me, but example done) Either way, I don't any type of reads like that will bring out a pedophile. :/ |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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This is not that straightforward. Those laws are not targeted against serious criticisms of scholarly debate. Holocaust (and cases of genocide in general) is a touchy subject so trivializing or denying it is interpeted as antisemitism. There aren't that many these days who think that freedom of speech should be absolute (outside of hardcore liberal or libertarian circles). That is more of an Enlightenment ideal. Last edited by jl07045 on Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tanteikingdomkey
 Posts: 2346 |
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I can agree with that, however do you buy the guys reason who reading them for a second? and I still say that even if most people would not some would, and that is to many |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14796 |
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It's like a thought-crime itself; that people can't suppose something may not be what it seems. If France can stop that, they can stop anything if they want to. |
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configspace
Posts: 3717 |
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Actually they are in Germany, regardless of context in most cases. Mein Kampf is still banned. The manga about it too and related Nazi material. Other books like The Turner Diaries are as well. Still, whether being discussed in a scholarly manner shouldn't matter. Suppressing this or any kind of speech just exacerbates what it tries to prevent. A Danish politician made some "hateful" comment about Islam. It's not a serious crime so he gets fined. But how is it helpful in any way? He'll just make the comments in private and others will do the same and allow resentment to grow beneath the covers of being politically correct. One can ask: if it were as serious as the politicians and some groups make it out to be, why isn't the US experiencing all sorts of mayhem due to not having any the same restrictions?
I think you will still find a sizable number of people who do if you know where to look  especially if you adhere to a principled notion of liberty, rather than treating various freedoms in a piecemeal, arbitrary manner. There are still large organizations promoting this ideal.
Yes. ....let's just say if you go deep into the fetish world, it's not surprising. Some hentai directors even switch scenes to the POV of the victim. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Well, Germany is a special case and a more extreme example that I am not that content with. I don't think that kind of self-flagellation is healthy for the historic memory.
That is a loaded question that I cannot agree with. Then again I don't live in America and don't have that much knowledge about the hate speech problems. This would also bring forward a question about whether the First Amendment is as perfect as it should be in the Age of Information, so let's not go there.
Freedom of speech is not to be seen as a value in on itself, because it becomes a dogma then. It has a specific purpose - to promote a discussion on a public level, which is very important for science, for free market, for democracies. The same could be said about other liberties. They are all ultimately subject to hapiness, life satisfaction. So I am simply checking if the reasons behind those principles still apply so that I could better weigh them against the harm principle. And when we put that one into the equation, we have a problem of defining "harm". And there are likely several other problematic points that I haven't spoken about. That is why I said this is not a straightforward issue. |
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tygerchickchibi
Posts: 1461 |
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Actually, yes. The judge is not a psychologist, and to be honest, everyone is human, so I wouldn't be surprised if his own personal disgust would actually cloud his judgement. There are things that may be hard to believe but that doesn't mean it's not necessarily true. Regarding sexuality, there are things that you are surprised people are into but are either too embarrassed to be open about it because it's not considered normal or it's "taboo" by society's standards. If his only outlet to relieve that tension is from a comic book, then so be it. It's kind of funny, I look like a very young kid, but I'm well over the age of 20. It's really bad in public for me when I date an older looking guy because when you pass buy people who only see things on the outside, even if they don't say anything their eyes shoot daggers at you (or in this case, my boyfriend), it's horrible. : |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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That's a Victimless Crime if the pictures are 100% drawn. And the idea of a "victimless crime" is pure bullshit. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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I'm sure you miss the days people could accuse anyone of witchcraft so you can watch them burn at the stake just because you feel insecure. |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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Playing Devil's argument for a moment, a person who's driving 120 miles an hour isn't creating any victims as long as he manages to avoid causing an accident. Same for a drunk driver. But from what I've seen, most people don't have an issue with arresting drunk drivers BEFORE they get into an accident and kill someone. There are also various other ways to get arrested for reckless endangerment. Do you have an issue with any of the above things being illegal? If you don't, then the argument one could make is that someone possessing images of "virtual child porn," and presumably using the images for their intended purpose, is behaving in just as dangerous a fashion as a drunk driver. That the images will only feed his desires and lead to him moving onto real children. That just like it is best to arrest a drunk driver before he crashes and kills someone, it is best to arrest a possessor of lolicon manga before he abuses a child. Someone could make that argument, at least. I find that argument bunk. I think there is just as much evidence to say that aforementioned images provide a safe release that reduces the chance of the person escalating to real children. That is to say, the evidence is incredibly shaky either way despite some good sounding arguments. This is not like drunk driving, where you can see a clear casual chain between driving drunk and accidents. In addition, driving a car is not a right like freedom of speech is. Driving is a privilege one has to prove themselves responsible enough for, one they agree to follow certain rules to keep. Why did I make an argument and then try and refute it? Well, mainly to show that there are some crimes that don't always have a clear victim but are still almost universally accepted as being crimes, so simply saying that lolicon images are victimless crime may not be enough to convince someone they should be allowed. |
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Tanteikingdomkey
Posts: 2346 |
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No it's called pro-active protection, you obviously have no concept of wanting to protect a child, but we are talikng about someone who has images of 6-8 being rapped, has made posting recruiting pre-teen girls to spend time with him, and has highly questionable reasoning for his actions. I would not let my child (especially a daughter) within a half mile of him. I am over 21 but still look like I am in high school, If I didn't give off the impression that I am very mature then no one would ever take me seriously at first. and as it, it's very hard for me to find a girlfriend. |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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Mad_Scientist wrote:
'If you don't, then the argument one could make is that someone possessing images of "virtual child porn," and presumably using the images for their intended purpose, is behaving in just as dangerous a fashion as a drunk driver.' So, you're saying that a guy who gets off on virtual child porn might accidentally go out and rape a real child? That's what your analogy implies, which makes it a terrible analogy. Drunk drivers, by and large, do not *intend* to hurt or kill anyone. The same can be said with speeders. When they do go out-of-control and hurt or kill someone, it is not by intent, which is why they're called *accidents*. Since you can't really *accidentally* rape a child, the analogy fails. For someone to do that, they have to intend to do that, and that intent makes their actions not accidental, which completely seperates them from speeders or drunk drivers and from the reasons why we arrest them. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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My point with the analogy was that drunk driving could be considered a victimless crime (as long as the person driving manages to avoid crashing), yet it is still considered a crime because of how dangerous and irresponsible it is. So, just because "virtual child porn" is also a victimless crime does not automatically mean it shouldn't be a crime, and someone could at least try to make the argument that it is just as dangerous as drunk driving, though for different reasons. Obviously the analogy isn't perfect, but in both cases someone can be arrested and charged with a crime, despite not having actually hurt or inconvenienced anyone in any way.
That said, I don't think lolicon manga or virtual child porn or whatever you want to call it should be illegal, for reasons I mentioned in my other post, plus some reasons I didn't even get into yet. I just always try to keep in mind the arguments someone with a different view might make, and try to ensure that my own arguments are able to deal with them properly. |
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