Forum - View topicANNCast - Hope, For All Mankind
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Cecilthedarkknight_234
 Posts: 3820 Location: Louisville, KY |
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Given it's premises at the time it wasn't sub-par anime adapts changing some-ones mind is not that easy. Now with the fact it's ended now and ken wrote the end wanted to write with a huge departure from harem hijinks i really think it should be looked back over. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
 Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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You've confused progressive with perfect. The USA has been about progress from day one, when people decided to step beyond monarchy. Since then it's led the way for freedom of speech and church-state separation in the modern world. There's a reason people like the late great Christopher Hitchens have left their homelands to become American citizens. They know that while the USA is never going to be problem free, it has the mechanisms for progress engineered into its very core. I don't know if I can say that about Canada. |
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Cheesecracker
 Posts: 240 |
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I smiled at that, but I'm really not sure how seriously you want to be taken. Challenging the identity of a concrete object(a rose by any other name...) is nowhere the same as challenging the facets (the content, quality or value) of something as abstract as a movie. The whole of a movie is the sum of many parts. It's an equation that comes up different from person to person. It's not even a number. I have red/green color blindness. If there were to be a movie hailed as 'glorious in it's use of red and green...sure to satisfy red and green loving movie goers.' You might think it'd be a waste of time for me to see it, that I would fail to find it exciting since I'm not getting the said effect. On the other hand it might be a non issue, even I cannot see these colors in form that most do*. I might still find I love it for it's composition, choreography or some other aspect. One of the reasons for this scenario is there are many reasons why people don't agree on what's in front of them. Most very arbitrary, but in this case it's identifiable as a factor and yet possibly meaningless as an indicator of no value whatsoever. I added denial and spite as after thoughts to why people might disagree and now I'm glad I did. *I do hare red green colorblindness, but the nature of it is a premature fall off in ability to detect these color. I can see those colors in their purer hues but lose track of them as their prescence become fainter. Life was interesting as an art student and later as an illustrator. Last edited by Cheesecracker on Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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 Sure man. The grass is always greener on the other side of the border.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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@Cheesecracker:
So what if an object is concrete? Can you prove to me that it will always manifest in the same way we know it to? There is no absolute truth in human experience beyond the Descartian "I think therefore I am" and things that are simply true by definition. If you want to change the definition of "spoon" to mean "fork", that's entirely your prerogative, but it's also mine to dismiss those who are more interested in being argumentative than actually having a discussion. @ikillchicken: 
But in all seriousness, my grass has been dead since October. |
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Cheesecracker
Posts: 240 |
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Can't disagree about the first part, but speculation about the shape of things to come and how, in general, we can muddy things by challenging people on things not in contention IMO is straying too far from the the initial discussion. You can claim that I'm just just being argumentative(if that's what you meant)., if that's correct then I think we are very close to the "I know you are, but what am I?" stage of this discussion. To quote the Talking Heads: " Well, how did I get here?" I believe it was the question of whether "torture porn" as a category could be applied to Battle Royal. I think it can, others do too and others don't. I tried to make my point as best I could. So if your only point now it that I'm a trouble maker for the sake of causing trouble. On that we will have to disagree. *Bows out* |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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@Cheesecracker:
As best I can find, "torture porn" was coined by David Edelstein in this article (http://nymag.com/movies/features/15622/) about Hostel. I quote: "As potential victims, we fear serial killers, yet we also seek to identify with their power. " His article pretty much sums up TP as an exercise in sadistic fantasy, one wherein the audience is invited to identify with the torturer. And that's it. That's all there is. That's why it's "porn". This article here (http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/opinions/can-we-stop-calling-it-torture-porn-already.php) makes the case that not only does the term see overuse, one is actually hard-pressed to find something to single-mindedly about torture that it is pornographic. I earlier cited the Guinea Pig films, particularly the second installment, as an example of such an extreme. Can people call Battle Royale TP? Yes. They can. They can also call it the feel good comedy of the year. They're both poor descriptors, it just happens that one is kind of a trendy way to dismiss something. I'm not trying to ostracize you or make you feel bad if you really do disagree, but with all your talk about subjectivity you had very little to say about the movie and what about it might make it TP. It leaves my relative and inscrutably personal mind wondering if you actually care or if you just saw an opportunity to say "aha, gotcha". Is that unfair? |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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@dewlwieldthedarpachief
Fine buddy. I was trying to be civil about it but since you've decided to throw that in my face I'll be direct instead. You are being ridiculous. Canada certainly has plenty of problems and I'm all for criticizing those problems. However, when you get down to it, Canada is still actually more progressive and all around better off than the States. To pretend otherwise is absurd and hyperbolic. What you're doing here is the exact same thing you criticized Chagen for. Canadians and Americans really really like to complain about what's wrong with their respective countries. Especially cynical 20-somethings who get a smug little ego boost out of it. (Not saying this is you, just that there's a lot of people like this). And hey, that's totally valid. Every country has problems. In fact, it's good that we call out those problems. It helps us move toward addressing them. Where it becomes just silly though is when those same people act like it's just their country, or that their country is far worse. In all likelihood...it's not. It's just very easy to look at the place you live and criticize it. Of course you see all it's problems more readily and of course they'll seem worse. Conversely, it's awfully easy to look at another country where you don't actually live and turn it into some romanticized land that's totally not as bad as where you live. So mock my platitude if you like but it absolutely holds true in this instance. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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@ikillchicken:
I am cynical and in my 20s, but I've also lived in America and find that American history tells a story of a fundamental change to a larger extent than Canadian history. In between the caveat that America isn't perfect and that I don't actually know if or to what degree that last bit is true, I don't see much of a challenge for anyone's political convictions (besides, I'm not even arguing that it's more progressive, just that it has the greater capacity to do so with its structure). As for the platitude, they say time heals all wounds. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Its structure was unique at the end of the 18th century. It's not unique in the modern world and the USA has always had just as many social problems as Western Europe. I don't see anything exceptional in USA unless we talk about political, economical and military power. |
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Cheesecracker
Posts: 240 |
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This I can work with. I wish you had started by asking if I was just playing 'gotcha' , but I realize that if I'm suspected of being a troll then the direct approach will seem like a pointless exercise. No, I am not just playing gotcha. I'm not a big fan 'past as law'(nor am I a fan of anarchy), Edelstein made have coined the phase but it didn't(doesn't?) end there. The language evolves. Which was part of my original point. Porn has come a long way from dark where it used to reside and the word itself has lost a lot of the stigma that it once possessed("Porn Star" emblazoned T's and other products). I can easily imagine a gradeschooler referring to something as "their 'porn.'" I've heard them say worse. Would it be unfair to say that Battle Royale involves torture? It has a kill or be killed, king of the hill dynamic involving unwilling participants with no choice but to comply or face a horrible fate. The torture involves a psychological side, a serious mind F*** if there ever was one. That seems pretty hard to dispute to me. Given that Sadomasochism is a real area of sexual satisfaction for some, it's not a stretch to have someone watching Battle Royale getting a similar rush(witih young Japanese girls and boys in school uniforms with guns and gore also - all well documented fetishes). Whether or not it's as bad as another film does not absolve it, it just creates a hierarchy in which they could still easily sit side by side on someone's bookshelf as kindred spirits. It may have much more to offer in the way of other messages, but you have to get past the other parts to do it. Of course you may actually enjoy those parts. I did not. FWIW, as far as the use of the term 'torture porn' goes, the genie is out of the bottle and will have to run its course. Anyone having catchphrase fatigue will just have wait it out or just be content to accept the ire of those who just don't want to hear it again. Personally, I want the expression "Good times" to go away. It is in an organic state and will pass when it's time comes...if it ever comes. The opposite(?) is also true. Many would like it if these types of movies would go away. I don't think either side of this discussion is merely 'trendy.' Serious business for all concerned. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I would agree that America is, historically, more prone to sudden and drastic change. I would also argue however that Canada has ultimately achieved all the same results in it's own way. Also, I would further argue that, regardless of history, in more recent decades Canada has been much quicker and decisive in making changes (gay marriage to use the most obvious example).
Okay, well fair enough then. Perhaps I misinterpreted your meaning. What "structure" exactly do you mean here though? Are you talking about the way the political or legal system is structured? Or something else? |
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asimpson2006
 Posts: 3151 Location: USA |
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One person does not represent the country. I only know of three people who think women exist for the purpose of control and having children. Everyone cannot have the same opinion or things would just be boring. As much I would to think those type of opinions are pointless by now they still need to be around. All countries have some messed up ideas and people, but those type of thoughts will never go away. They will not away in 20 years, nor 200 years, or 2000 years if humans are still around. The only thing we can wish for is that those type of ideas start to become less and less frequent as the years go by. |
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maaya
Posts: 976 |
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The percentage of such people in the US still seems to be much higher than in other western countries though. Well, it's of course a "fairly" progressive country nevertheless. Not really more so than other western countries, but certainly than a large part of the rest of the world. |
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Indeed, Canada is currently suffering from the problems of single-seat, first-past-the-post voting, so that a minority of the electorate is picking a majority of the parliament ... ... but that is a problem entirely shared with the United States. However, Canada does not have the abuse of the original separation of powers that is the US Senate, which has long been where progressive changes go to die, with its accidental institution of minority veto via the filibuster when Aaron Burr removed the "motion to proceed" from the Senate rules. That goes along with a clear violation of the clear intent of the Constitution to grant the power of the purse to the House of Representatives, as it was held in Great Britain at the time by the House of Commons, which only magnifies the opportunities for reactionary resistance to progressive changes, even when they gain majority support. On Zac's original claim and the original objection to it ~ whether or not a country is progressive is not decided by how reactionary any person in the country is, its decided by what happens when people attempt to enforce reactionary views. And there, some parts of the US are more progressive than others, but the US now is far more progressive on women's rights now than it was forty years ago, because people fought long and hard and made progress. There's a strong effort to roll that back going on right now, and we will see how it plays out ~ but the way its going now, it looks like the backlash to the reactionary push is going to be much stronger than the reactionary push itself. Relative to Japan, the US at the moment is substantially more progressive on women's rights, especially rights to equal treatment at work, even if the US may not be as progressive on that as many people may wish (and, yes, I'm looking at you, Wal*Mart). |
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