Forum - View topicANNCast - Code Geasscast
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Kadmos1
 Posts: 13569 Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP |
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I wish Shirley's dub VA was in more anime because I liked her voice (though this is essentially the only anime I heard her in). Her husband, Liam O'Brien, was awesome as Tenma in Monster.
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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Actually, I think Code Geass is pretty upfront with its contention that ALMOST everyone acts out of their own "selfish" interests. I don't think Cornelia was intended to show that "Britannia can change" at all, its just that her position has changed and her motives now align with the "heroes" rather than the "villians". That happens CONTINUOUSLY throughout the show, you have various characters that switch sides MAINLY because "well this serves my purposes for now". Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Cornelia is a "great character", I just don't think her actions really need a whole lot more explaining. |
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AwaysAnnoyed
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I stopped listening at 24-something minutes, when Zac called C.C. (C2) C C (cee-cee), and when Hope corrected him he was just like 'whatever'. I think that that is a completely wrong attitude to take towards analyzing a show. I mean, if you can't even get the character's name right, what value does your argument truly have? If you don't want to watch a show, don't. Don't watch it 'just because everyone has', because then your interpretation is obviously going to be negative.
I'm sorry, but this podcast wasn't worth more time than I would have spent watching one anime episode, even one episode of Code Geass. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Lotta salt over this one; I stand by what I said in the podcast. We're doing Angel Beats next.
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5861 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Zac has been an icon at ANN for years now. If you can't love him for what he is and what he has brought, then you are on the wrong channel.
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AwaysAnnoyed
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I do not know him well enough to be a fanboy of his. Also, my attention span this time was just that short. I did listen to the entire Fate/Zero podcast though. Normally I don't have time to listen to podcasts in the first place, but since it was Code Geass, I thought I would make an exception...guess if you haven't been listening for years and you just jump in to listen to one random one and not like it, it's no good, right?
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Charred Knight
 Posts: 3085 |
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Look at her discussion with Schneizel near the end of R2 when Schneizel reveals his plans, and Cornelia states that peace attained by force is not peace. Cornelia was ruthless in season 1, and by season 2 she's arguing that you shouldn't force peace on people. That's clearly a massive change in character, and the show doesn't really explain why she's undergone this change. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5861 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Fan boy, no. He is an ANN personality. He is one of the things that makes this site interesting and entertaining. |
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Black Thunder 6
Posts: 128 |
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Casts in which Zac and Hope aren't into the show can still be good if the guest involved is great (CLANNAD) or if their equal distaste for something makes for interesting commentary without the need of a fan to give a point for it (Arjuna) but this fell flat because not only did they skim through the show and didn't get into the actual meat of it but the guest wasn't much of a strong view who just caved in way too easy probably would have been better if you guys just talked about your distaste for Mahouka instead. Not sure what to expect from the Angel Beats cast but I can already tell it won't be as "forgiving" as the CLANNAD one.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I think it's more that the show has serious diehard fans convinced it's very deep and merits a ton of serious analysis, and since nobody on the show carried water for that viewpoint, we're getting blowback for it.
I don't think the show is deep at all. I think it's a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. References and story parallels to obvious stuff like Hamlet isn't "deep", it's cliche, in my opinion. Code Geass gave me nothing to think about. That doesn't mean I'm RIGHT about that, but it is my opinion and I stand by it. I respect your disagreement, I just don't have the time or inclination to get into a long, drawn-out thousands-of-words-on-a-message-forum argument about it, especially when my take on it is entirely subjective "Okay, that doesn't seem very complicated or deep to me" and that's it. I think it's great that people are taking the show apart and explaining why they feel the way they do about it. I'm under no obligation to agree with it or argue with those views, nor am I under any particular requirement that every viewpoint is represented in anything I publish or produce. So that's kinda that. |
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Black Thunder 6
Posts: 128 |
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^Oh no! I don't think its deep at all in fact you're very much right in that the story is incredibly simple and gets weighed down by excessive and unnecessary filler, like Scamp I thought the show has some merit in it's muddled writing but it'll never be anymore than a guilty pleasure. I just thought that the cast didn't give me as much insight as the CLANNAD, Arjuna and Haruhi ones where it was obvious that you weren't into the shows but provided interesting discussion for them here it was like "well this show is just bad but I had fun watching it". Obviously my expectations were to go a bit more in depth with the characters and the show's impact like with the Fate/Zero cast which is my own fault personally forgetting what type of show this was.
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jroa
Posts: 537 |
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Honestly, I thought the podcast was mostly fine despite obviously not trying to cover everything that can be reasonably considered as interesting material for discussion. In that sense, I feel there are plenty of additional positives and negatives that went unsaid.
This conversation was simply a good sampler of what people might like or dislike about the series through the entirely valid opinions of three people. I'm satisfied with that and I have no significant objections against its existence or methodology. In any case, Scamp did provide a few arguments in defense of his appreciation for the show. If you want even more arguments, then you can go read his blog. It's not like the podcast places a hard limit on any side of the debate. If I had any formal problems with the content of the podcast, it was with Hope's occasional use of the phrase "false complexity" since I think that reflects a questionable judgment call right after describing aspects that are at least minimally complex. Insufficiently, perhaps, but not "falsely" so. In terms of omissions, the last segment with some Suzaku discussion was focused on the weakness of his philosophy, and not on the character itself. For me, the most interesting thing about Suzaku is just how messed up he really was at his core, not his philosophical argument. I believe Suzaku becoming Zero makes for a very good fit when we take a step back and look at all the information the show gives us about his past and his changes in behavior. Personally, I wouldn't call Code Geass "deep" in terms of great literature, nope, yet there are still some pretty interesting subjects to be found even within a surface level reading of the show. The podcast covered a number of them, but others weren't addressed. Which is why I tried to bring up some extra ideas in my previous posts. We're definitely not talking about Hamlet here, but who nees to go that far? Not me. I would only say it deserves a moderate amount of analysis, compared to Zac's less generous viewpoint. I don't want to argue it's a masterpiece for the ages or anything along those lines. I'd conclude by saying that ultimately the human element is the key. Those people who feel a personal connection towards a show for any given reason are just more willing to tolerate what Zac calls "cliche" content and, in turn, they will likely want to look more closely at the rest of it. This is an entirely natural process, in my opinion. It happens the other way around too. I think Hope's reviews of Kill la Kill were sometimes reading too much into it, for example, and I found the "cliche" content more problematic there than in Code Geass. I don't think that had any more depth in truth. Thus my own reviews of that Studio Trigger series would be quite positive yet still a full grade below Hope's in most cases. And I'd like to think that's just fine too. Last edited by jroa on Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:30 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Angel M Cazares
 Posts: 5439 Location: Iscandar |
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That's a good choice. And since Charlotte will probably be over by then, you could throw it into the discussion. |
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SillyPerson
 Posts: 39 Location: Vatican City |
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Code Geass is definitely one of my favorite shows, and I certainly like Lelouch's character and sympathize with him pretty much the entire story through both R1 and R2, except for a few scenes where Lelouch goes too far or does something really stupid (like when he ditches everyone at the end of R1 and then his military loses without him, or how he screws up with regard to Euphemia, Shirley, etc.). I also think Lelouch is rather restrained in use of his power and could easily have turned many people into his slaves, something he only starts resorting to very late in R2. I also like CC, Kallen, etc. And Lelouch saves all of humanity from his father's evil Human Instrumentality Project-esque plans (that whole "killing God" part which reminded me too much of Evangelion). Code Geass also has plenty of funny moments too. The one character who really annoys me constantly throughout the series is Suzaku, who is just a giant annoyance. And the constant Pizza Hut product placement also annoys me quite a bit. But besides that I really like the show a lot, one of my favorite shows.
But anyway I liked this podcast, the people in it made a lot of good points. I didn't like what they said about people walking shows week-to-week now instead of binge-watching since personally I was watching shows week-to-week back in 2007 but in more recent years I've binge-watched everything, including nowadays I binge-watch everything. And I don't see much point in comparing this to other anime. Death Note is a pretty obvious show to compare it to... both shows are very good and have SOME similarities. But Lelouch and Light Yagami are very different, and their antagonists Suzaku and L basically have nothing in common, plus their powers and the way they use them are rather different. I feel like Lelouch is pretty much just a hero, not even an antihero, and Light Yagami is pretty much just a villain. And Suzaku is just a naive idiot who is well-intentioned but ends up helping out the bad guys, the Britannian imperialists, most of the time. A number of things about Lelouch make him a genuine hero like his willingness to sacrifice his own life for the greater good and his lack of actually wanting to rule the world as a dictator for real, which absolutely is the opposite from Light Yagami on Death Note who was utterly unwilling to sacrifice himself, had absolutely no scruples at all, and really wanted to rule the world as a dictator. But the funny thing is Suzaku is ALSO a hero TOO, just a much more misguided one, so the series is mostly about 2 heroes fighting against each other. Lelouch is somewhat misguided, mostly because he is overly concerned about his sister Nunnally when that comes into conflict with the greater good, but mostly that isn't too much of a problem. And yeah I actually like the stuff going on at the school and with the student council and all the silly stuff... and I like the fanservice stuff with Kallen too. The show is just full of stuff I like... although it does overuse amnesia way too much and I think giving people amnesia all the time as a plot contrivance is rather annoying. And I think he should have been open and honest with Kallen and let her know about his identity as Zero right from the start but he just had to sometimes act like a lying jerk for no reason just for plot reasons apparently. And yes both seasons of the show are great, and people who only watch the first season are missing out. I've never watched that spinoff Akito the Exiled, but the reason for that is, it is unfinished, and as soon as they make the final episode of Akito they Exiled I'll binge-watch the whole thing at once. I don't like watching shows that are unfinished (as an example I've seen the 3 out of 4 new Evangelion movies that have been made, and it really irritates me that the 4th one hasn't been made yet since I'd rather watch all 4 in a row and see how it ends, and I kinda wish I'd put off watching the first 3 new Evangelion movies until after the 4th one comes out at some point in the future because I hate having to wait a year or more to find out the ending to something). But yeah Code Geass is a really great show despite having some minor flaws, and while I notice the flaws it's pretty easy for me to overlook them and forgive the writers for putting them in. And unlike some of the people in this podcast I loved the show all the way through... I found some of the same things they found annoying annoying myself, but not even remotely to the same extent, and it was pretty easy for me to overlook them, and I found the entire series pretty enjoyable and awesome since I forgive mistakes in anime pretty easily (in any anime I watch actually). That's part of why I like anime in general so much, since I can easily enjoy it without being distracted by minor problems and just enjoy it for what it is, unironically, just because it is full of so many things that appeal to me. So for someone like me who doesn't try to overanalyze things and is able to enjoy things that are somewhat flawed or have plot holes, I think Code Geass is awesome and many other shows that have plot holes I also find awesome too because they just don't bother me that much. Mostly I find annoying characters to be my biggest annoyance in anime, like my biggest annoyance in Code Geass is Suzaku. Like Suzaku's whole moral argument is that you shouldn't use violence but then he constantly violates his own rule all the time so Suzaku is just a massive hypocrite; at least Lelouch is consistent with his own morals (Lelouch believes violence is justified if it helps the greater good and he acts accordingly and is always acting for the greater good and unlike Suzaku he is NOT a hypocrite, and although Lelouch sometimes PLAYS the part of a villain, that's just an act, and he really doesn't have a villainous bone in his body). I mostly just find the show to be an action-filled fun thing to watch though and just really enjoyed it a whole lot and whenever I watch it I root for Lelouch the whole time. The only time I have trouble rooting for Lelouch is near the end when Kallen, who I also root for, is on the other side, and Suzaku, who I can't stand, is on the same side as Lelouch, and Lelouch is working with the people who have been the bad guys throughout the rest of the series rather than the good guys, namely the Black Knights. But then the ending makes it clear why this was necessary, since Lelouch had to become and personify an evil Britannian dictator and then get killed by Zero, the champion of freedom, in order to bring peace to the world without using WMDs and also to revive Zero's reputation so that Suzaku could take over the role of Zero. Also, a debate over whether or not Lelouch died??? Honestly??? It's as obvious as it could possibly be that Lelouch died. This is even more obvious if you watch the Nunnally in Wonderland OVA where Lelouch's ghost temporarily comes back from the dead for one day (BTW, the Nunnally in Wonderland OVA is horrible and I hate it, it's nowhere near as good as the series. Don't watch it.) And also the one person saying Spike died at the end of Cowboy Bebop... OK that is complete garbage, Spike survived, the Cowboy Bebop movie takes place after the show and in it Spike is still alive which is a pretty open-and-shut case if you ask me. Spike does not die at the end of Cowboy Bebop but Lelouch does die at the end of Code Geass, it's obvious if you look at the other stuff like the Code Geass OVAs or the Cowboy Bebop movie. As for CC being able to talk to Lelouch after he's dead, well she has the power to talk to dead people, that is established during the show, in fact she does it all the time with Lelouch's mom Marianne (yes I know Marianne isn't technically dead, her body died but not her soul, but in the Code Geass universe nobody's soul dies and there is an afterlife so actually everyone's soul is still alive after they die in the Code Geass universe, as is proven in both the show during the killing-God arc and even moreso in the Nunnally in Wonderland OVA). Anyway, point is, it's a really good show despite all the nay-saying during this podcast (all valid criticisms, but likes and dislikes are subjective matters of opinion not objective matters of fact, and subjectively I still love Code Geass as one of my favorite shows ever). Also Code Geass is more enjoyable in the English dub vs. the original Japanese audio with subtitles, at least as far as my own personal preference goes... I have seen other shows where I like the Japanese audio better than the English like Hellsing Ultimate (the Japanese Alucard is a million times cooler than the English Alucard, but I prefer the English Lelouch to Japanese Lelouch)... it's different for every show. Any show that has Johnny Yong Bosch's voice acting for the main character in the English dub, I will prefer the English dub because he is so talented (so for instance, Death Note is better in English since he is in it). The only exception to my rule of liking Johnny Yong Bosch is Eureka Seven, where I didn't like his whiny annoying childlike voice for Renton one bit and it really got on my nerves. |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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Just came by one more time to respond to this. Specifically, in regards to the Cowboy Bebop stuff.
I need a quote for this...Kermit?
I'd like to ask you how you got the idea that Knockin' on Heaven's Door took place after the ending of the TV series. Was it because it was released after the finale? I'm pretty sure that it was explicitly said by the creators that the film takes place sometime between "Cowboy Funk" and "Brain Scratch" (Episodes 22 & 23, respectively). Also, Edward is there. How can it take place after the end of the anime if Edward left for good before then? You based your entire argument for Spike being alive on something that is completely and objectively wrong. And yes, I am team "Spike died". It makes more thematic sense to me. Back to the topic at hand. Personally, I'd give the first season a "You Tried" award and a recommendation to those with a high tolerance for nonsense. At least the writing staff put effort into the story, even if it was all for nothing. The second half gets a facepalm and a recommendation of "watch it once then never ever again" because you can't watch one half without the other. The sad thing is that if the creators stood up to the Sunrise executives or even just straight up left, we might have gotten a better product overall. Who knows? |
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