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OEL manga jumping the shark

Xenos, you're a comic book fan at heart right. I grew up with DC and Marvel just like you. I love superheroes as much as you do, and I love manga and manga-style art. But this is my last weapon on you.

Do you know when Marvel Comic was formed? 1939 (it was then called Timely comic), DC was made in 1934 (as National Allied Publications) . Why did Marvel formed after DC was made? It was because of Superman and Batman that made superhero popular and Marvel decided to cash in on the sucess, Marvel created some superheroes that was somewhat original but emulating the superheroes that DC did. Applying your logics about OEL manga is dirty cheap marketing on manga, are you saying that Marvel sucks because they are using the same marketing schemes for superheroes comic and DC should do the superheroes not Marvel? Saying OEL manga is a cheap marketing on Japanese manga is just like saying that Marvel is doing cheap marketing by creating superheroes that emulate DC Comic superheroes. DC Comic also emulate some Marvel superheroes

-Marvel's Hawkeye reminds me too much of DC's Green Arrow.

-Marvel's Deadpool share too much similarity with DC's Deadstroke (aka Slade in Teen Titans series, A little note, Deadstroke was created before Deadpool)

-Marvel's Kingpin looks like a blatant copy off of DC's Lex Luthor.

-Marvel's Dr. Strange is probably Marvel's clone to DC's Dr. Fate (Dr fate came out first then Dr Strange)

Even if Marvel did emulate and probably copied-off superheroes. Marvel still had a sucessful marketing, why because of the marketing schemes. Compare that to the OEL manga marketing, as I said if you say OEL manga is just cheap marketing schemes to cash in on Japanese manga.

You're saying that Marvel Comic, Dark Horse and other comic book company emulate superheroes and it's cheap marketing schemes. If you're bashing Tokyopop, then you're bashing Marvel because they're emulating things and use cheap marketing to cash in on that fad.

Marvel did a lot of good job from not only doing superheroes, but doing other genres like romance (Marvel comic had a lot of influences in Japan), Fantasy, Horror, Western, and other. Sometime I think Marvel should have come up with the Harem, Ecchi, Sports, Shonen-Ai/Yaoi, Shojo-Ai/Yuri genre, it could have makes American Comic book more intresting, they could have come up with Fruit Baskets and Cowboy Bebop if Comic code authority hadn't violate the 1st amendment .

Anyway, Xenos (that includes you SharinganEyes and Moomintroll), don't try that "you're confusing genre with medium" crap on me. I want you to forget Medium and genre. I want you to look at what Marvel did, and compare to what OEL manga is doing. If Marvel can manage to be sucessful by emulation and this so-called "Cheap marketing". What do you think OEL manga is doing??

First it was the upcoming Marvel OEL manga. Then DC team up with anime studio to do Batman: Gotham Knights. Now look what's happening to Marvel superheroes, they're becoming anime. What do you call that Cheap marketing because anime is becoming a fad now.

What's next:
-Superman anime with character design by Akira Toriyama.

-Frank Miller and Shinichiro Wantanabe team up and do a Sin City anime (I've encountered a lot of people who would love to see a Sin City anime/manga)

Yes all Stereotype=Bad. So the only stereotype you accept is the manga should be made in Japan and nowhere else.

I'll still buy a OEL manga even if the creator don't call it manga. I'll even buy that upcoming X-men, WOlverine OEL manga to support OEL manga market and my love of Marvel comic.

Oh really, so why does ANN have a Australian section?

Manga was, until Tokyopop and some other people hijacked the word, essentially the entire Japanese comic industry. You can't really emulate something that can be divided in so many genres and artstyles. The people who draw what you call OEL manga were often influenced a handful of comic creators, not the whole Japanese comic industry.

Emulation is not a bad thing, in the beginning atleast, but these new creators still need to grow as artists. I think you'll restrict them if you stick the manga label on them.

Tamaria wrote:

You're part of the problem if you think Japanese comics are superiour to other comics.

Do me a favor and count the number of anime/manga conventions globally compared to comic conventions.

In short, "OEL manga" (even if you call it something else) is comparable to Japanese manga -- more so than American comics. Therefore, it is manga. Yet, the "OEL" part had to come in because few would accept the idea of manga produced outside Japan.

Manga's "influence" is that predominant. "Influence" behaves like a pendulum, and it's swinging our way now. If it is enough to alter the American comic industry, then it is enough to claim that manga is "superior". I doubt any company would change their ways -- for fun. It's a market effect.

Tamaria wrote:

But if we've already put them in the manga-box, they'll have a hard time to get out of it, because people expect them to draw in "manga style".

It's a reasonable expectation because it is what readers demand.

Yet, instead of trying to mimic Japanese story telling, I'd like some good wholesome American (or European) stories ported into the manga visual format. That would be a nice change of pace from the multitude of Japanese based stories in manga format.

It is a debate of terminology and viewpoints. An older, and I think still valid viewpoint, versus the New Kids on the Block who just don't have the right stuff, baby. I kinda feels like Anne Sullivian trying to communicate to the brilliant mind of Helen Keller. We're just trying to show people a fuller view of the world than the cloud this current marketing has people in. Manga, Helen, manga

Because the mystic and sorcerer is such an original type of character. Might as well start bitching about Merlin, Gandalf, and Dumbledore too.

If you generalize anything enough like you are, they all become one muddled gray boring blur. I suggest you stop doing this and see these characters, and art styles, for the nice variety they are.

Noooooooo. They're totally different marketing schemes. You continue to fail to see what we're saying. We're saying the content of the marketing scheme is wrong. Manga is not an art style, life style, format, genre or whatever these yahoos market it as. I could complain about Marvel's marketing and other things, but that would be different because it's a totally different marketing scheme. Your idea of emulation and that there is some correlation between superheros and manga flat out doesn't work.

You do know that American genres have been flourishing in the past 20 years right? Especially surging from smaller publishers and the indie crowd, comic books are already more interesting than you think they are. Sure it took some time to get rid of the Comics Code yoke, but it's off. The titles are there. You should look.

While it is nice to see these characters redesigned and animated by Japanese studios, it's also sad to see the total failure of the American animation industry and that we have to turn to Japan to output these things.

Isn't DBZ enough? Plus what's wrong with Warner Brothers own animation studios?

Isn't the actual Sin City 'manga' enough? Plus I'm, sure Shinichiro Wantanabe has enough things to direct and doesn't need Miller. If they were to animate Miller, it should be in his style anyway. (Meanwhile don't get me started on Miller's trip to crazy town lately with The Spirit and such.)

It's not a sterotype. It's the definition of the damn word. Associating a Japanese word with Japan is a stereotype? It's simple common sense. Meanwhile your Calvin Ball rules of manga style are a stereotype. Tell me how they're not a bad stereotype?

Also, SkyDoll. An amazing book. It's two Italian creators making a comic for a French company which is now being republished by Marvel. They say their art is influenced by manga as well as American and European artists. So what's wrong with calling it a comic here? Of course they call it BD over in France. If they release it in Japan, then it's manga. Really, what's wrong with this very flexible and very free view of the world? Why does everything need some marketing label? Let people be free to read books, dammit! Don't wrangle them all into some OEL manga ghetto. Mr. OEL manga, tear down this wall.

I'm not promoting a stereotype, you're taking that out of context. There's nothing wrong with promoting manga-style art in America. Even if they make a OEL manga and they don't label it as manga. It would be obvious to many people it still a OEL manga or a global manga. Even if they put OEL manga in the comic book section not in the manga section, people would still identify it as a manga because of it's drawing style.

They don't have to call it a manga. But other people will, I can call it a manga because of it's drawing. Don't ask me what's manga-style. I know you know what it is. I told you it, you just deny it.

As a matter of fact, Xenos, keep continuing this debate. I'll contact the moderator and have this topic close down. We seen to not reach a agreement on who's correct and you just use the same information. Well Xenos, let see how the OEL manga market do in the next 10 years. If that OEL manga trends grow, then you'll be sorry you'll ever argue with us.