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Yttrbio wrote:

Key wrote:

If one knows the nature of Chihiro's particular defect then the presence of that scene in the series is so utterly predictable that I do not feel that it can reasonably count as a spoiler.

That scene is one of the high points of the series. You know, intellectually, that it exists, but it punches you in the face with the implications when you actually see it.

I think it was a major spoiler, and it would be amazing if it could be removed or tagged. You're talking about something which the entire character arc is built around - whether or not you personally saw it coming, it's really interesting to watch and be drawn in by if you weren't thinking ahead - just like the guy in the arc.

This was a series that I thought from the very beginning looked awesome, but as I'm much more into romantic comedies than straight out romantic dramas--got burned out on Clannad and similar anime--I didn't stick with it past the first episode.

ShinnFlowen wrote:

SaharaFrost wrote:

ShinnFlowen wrote:

THERE is a score for art style, which is a B+ so if you have something to argue about it would be why didn't he give it a A or A-. I think B+ is a great score considering it is 5 years old.

Gosh, I feel like a complete idiot. Thanks for pointing this out Shinn...I totally missed this. Apologies, Key...looks like I was arguing about nothing...

Well no one pointed out the difference between "Animation to Art" so I would say the moderators did not help you understand that you were mistaken and it is even more odd they argued against you when it was not the animation that was the issue. Even if you were a bit confused that doesn't mean you still agree with the Art score of B+.

Yeah, that's true. And you're right...I do still disagree with the B+...but that's a much better score than a C-. So even if I still disagree, it makes me feel better about the whole thing lol.

ShinnFlowen wrote:

I think your getting you're idea of them stating that it's in two separate countries by confusing what they say about the design of the city. I think the only case of they remotely even talked about the actual cities was with Miyako and Hiro. It is sort of silly how they don't tell you why there's two CITIES that look remarkably similar.

Well, there's the whole "apocalypse" earthquake thing too. One city gets almost destroyed in Japan so its mirror gets built south of the equator in Australia. Or something. It's not even a spoiler since it's not too important to the the story; Winter there, summer there. Ok, it's fairly important...

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(Contrarily, the “guilt trip” angle, which is alluded to in one flashback, feels tacked on.)

This is the problem with the review. It was nagging me for awhile as I tried to figure out how the reviewer missed some of the main ideas behind the series. This event, if it's the one I think it is, is the root cause for the series for both the romantic elements as well as the artistic ones and it is the underlying character motivation for Kei, Chihiro, Hiro, Kyosuke, Miyako and Renji; Those it affected directly and those who felt the aftershocks by trying to get close to the former.

spoiler[ Ok, the main triangle of the series is Hiro [artist], Chihiro [artist] and Kei[Nonartist. Technically, creative people outnumber uncreative people in this series and there seems to be a disconnect in how they fail to understand creative drive in their prospective and failed love interests but with that, I'm likening this B graded story to the musical Sunday in the Park with George.] Even if you dismiss any possible romantic feelings the kids could have had, even on an artistic level there was something there. Hiro was going to draw comics that Chihiro would have written; Kei was jealous of the time they were spending together which didn't involve her and she found a way to end it, though not in the way she actually wanted. Her sister lost an eye, her memory and her way as an artist. To merely pass it off as a "guilt trip" not only fails to explain why the twin sisters live in different hemispheres but why Kei hampers both her relationship with Hiro and his career of drawing manga. What I found the most interesting is Hiro's relationship in regards to Chihiro; He seemingly makes little mention of her but I think the way he's forcing himself as an artist is his way of coping.

I admit it is conjecture but he's shut himself out of everyone's life, he mostly stops going to school and his only real contact with actual living beings is Chihiro's twin sister whom he treats like a little sister. I would say the fact he doesn't mention her says more about the situation then if he did. I don't think it's guilt in his case but rather, he wants to succeed for both of them.]

I could continue on, and on, and on but at only 12 episodes, the show shouldn't be that deep and hey, maybe it isn't. Just go ahead and take everything at face value, why not. It works that way with Myself, Yourself. "Oh, that's it, that's the root cause of her trauma and how she gets over it? How ... simple." But really, once artists get involved, simplicity is the first casuality because true artistic drive tends to seperate them from the "normals" just by itself. This series and the next adds a good dose of melodrama just for that "extra" kick ... to the groin.

And the production design of this show {"Art", huh? And animation doesn't qualify as art how?} is quite a bit better than B and the animation is better than C. But this part is just my opinion.

The Blu-Ray is beautiful and I highly recommend this series just based on aesthetics alone.

Animegomaniac wrote:

Well, there's the whole "apocalypse" earthquake thing too. One city gets almost destroyed in Japan so its mirror gets built south of the equator in Australia. Or something. It's not even a spoiler since it's not too important to the the story; Winter there, summer there. Ok, it's fairly important...

Oh, so is that what the deal is with the ruined highway that formed the backdrop of a couple of scenes? Is it explained in the VN? I remember thinking that it seemed to be an awfully random piece of destruction to see in a series like this.

Guess I should have specified that Yuko wasn't the only detail from the VN which appears without explanation in this series.

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This is the problem with the review. It was nagging me for awhile as I tried to figure out how the reviewer missed some of the main ideas behind the series. This event, if it's the one I think it is, is the root cause for the series for both the romantic elements as well as the artistic ones and it is the underlying character motivation for Kei, Chihiro, Hiro, Kyosuke, Miyako and Renji; Those it affected directly and those who felt the aftershocks by trying to get close to the former.

Let me clarify, then. The "tacked on" comment is a reference to the fact that the matter is only dealt with directly that one time and never seems to bother spoiler[Kei ] at any other point.

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To merely pass it off as a "guilt trip" not only fails to explain why the twin sisters live in different hemispheres. . .

Which is, again, a detail that isn't clarified anywhere in the first series. (And if I'm forgetting a scene which does clarify this, then someone please point out an episode, and time code within that episode, where it's talked about.)

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And the production design of this show {"Art", huh? And animation doesn't qualify as art how?} is quite a bit better than B and the animation is better than C.

When we give separate grades for "art" and "animation" it doesn't. Look at it this way: the "Art" grade is based on pure aesthetics, while the "Animation" grade is the technical production.

Key wrote:

omoikane wrote:

The problem I see as reflected in the review is more regards to how gimmicky it is at times. I think those of you who think animation has to be animated is either blind or just talking nonsense, since ef is clearly animated. There's actually plenty of animation. Just nothing animated in a way where it's eye-popping flashy.

Sorry, no, this is not a case where there's plenty of animation but it's just not flashy; see Hanasaku Iroha for an excellent example of what you're talking about.

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And it's probably a conscious choice in ef, too, because the way it uses striking changing cuts. If you have two pictures to show and you don't want to show the transition, of course you wouldn't animate the motion that goes between the two pictures. There are also a lot of cuts where only one portion of something gets animated because they want to highlight that one thing. For example, spoiler[chihiro's arm is the metaphorical "13 hours" in the sheep-on-a-chain 11-year clock, so you see her move her hand or arm because her stretch reflects what is changing in her life in terms of her memories, etc]. I think some people would want to distinguish that sort of lack-of-animation versus the garden variety cabbage kind.

So I think it's better to say "gimmicky" rather than "lack of animation" because there's actually plenty of animation. I mean, I am in the middle of watching the series and there's about as much animation as most other late night, low-budget shows.

Oh, the series is certainly gimmicky; that's manifestly evident in its shot selections and artistic elements. But let's not confuse artistry and animation here. I gave the series a much higher grade for the former because I was trying to draw a clear line on where I felt the problem was.

Thanks for the response but I guess the only question left is then: Are you going to rank minimalist animation low on the animation scale? That seems just a tad on the inflexible side of things. It's pretty clear that ef tries to be minimalist (in order to generate contrast). But is that somehow 'bad animation'? I think that's an inflexible way to apply this metric or whatever you're doing.

As for Hanasaku Iroha, I think I get what you're saying. To me that show has some very good animation, but how is it not eye-popping? I guess that's just me.

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Thanks for the response but I guess the only question left is then: Are you going to rank minimalist animation low on the animation scale? That seems just a tad on the inflexible side of things. It's pretty clear that ef tries to be minimalist (in order to generate contrast). But is that somehow 'bad animation'? I think that's an inflexible way to apply this metric or whatever you're doing.

It's how it's used for its given content/context; Key compares NGE using a minimal amount of stoic animation for its designed, effective purpose (and mentions too that it happens twice in that show) versus ef - a tale of tried true manipulation that doesn't pull (as much) cheap shots as its kin genre.
You look at the difference and ef's production for its age might not stand up against better made series; SHAFT isn't the best when it comes to smoothness or consistency as they are something alike to a flashbang grenade - It'll shock, possibly stun, its designated targets, but you may be disappointed when that full-force extravaganza was superficially empty to begin with.

But wow, really Key?

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And that's what sets this series apart from other moe-laden romances out there: none of its story arcs resort to even a whiff of the supernatural.

It's all done with logical, reasonable, understandable, pathos? It's funny since Air's my favorite VN-class moe but at least the supernatural elements were spoiler[anchored by an existing, if not a timelessly enduring, social/emotional problem; a sense of practical realism.] I know you said the focus is uneven but so is Xam'd and - with the expectancy bar set to the BONES standard - I am enjoying it very much. So are we talking enjoyment with a freshness not often seen? (like... a tone similar to true tears?) Or a concept treated with casual attention for casual pay-off? (like... I dunno, any VN-class moe released by Sentai that aren't dubbed)

C- in animation but it looks good on blu-ray? I agree with previous posters, that's an unfair rating. Perhaps you should consider elaborating more next time, especially when the series is being unique and you think it's being cheap and gimmicky.

Leave it to ANN to seek out flaws or assign someone who dislikes a series to give it a fair review. Rolling Eyes

DragoZERO wrote:

C- in animation but it looks good on blu-ray? I agree with previous posters, that's an unfair rating. Perhaps you should consider elaborating more next time, especially when the series is being unique and you think it's being cheap and gimmicky.

Leave it to ANN to seek out flaws or assign someone who dislikes a series to give it a fair review. Rolling Eyes

I don't think B is a bad score, especially with Key doing the review.

ShinnFlowen wrote:

DragoZERO wrote:

C- in animation but it looks good on blu-ray? I agree with previous posters, that's an unfair rating. Perhaps you should consider elaborating more next time, especially when the series is being unique and you think it's being cheap and gimmicky.

Leave it to ANN to seek out flaws or assign someone who dislikes a series to give it a fair review. Rolling Eyes

I don't think B is a bad score, especially with Key doing the review.

People expect the same college grade curve in the ANN Encyclopedia. Laughing

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others will find that the talky nature and limited animation offset the series' other appealing factors

Kinda sounds like every SHAFT show.. except madoka.

Call me a philistine but that's also the reason why I'm put off most SHAFT shows.

Ironically, I did like "a tale of memories".

Key wrote:

No, it gets a C- for a lack of quantity. I had thought that I was rather specific about that in the review. (Or are you and others also going to try to deny to me that this isn't one of the least-animated anime TV series in recent years?)

Your review made the reason for the score clear. However, I think the "amount of motion" is a too one-dimensional view of "animation". I think a rating for animation should include other visual elements as well. Sometimes a still image is the right one to use. Sometimes a still picture of neatly folded clothes is a perfect way to tell you what has happened. ef is one of the more visually-appealing (or at least visually-interesting) series of the past several years, with some truly wonderful moments.

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