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Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher a U.S. movie?


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Calathan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:20 am Reply with quote
Currently, Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher is listed as a "U.S. movie". I don't think it is though, at least according to everything I've read. This news story says that it is made by Madhouse, and Theron starts his review by saying it is anime. Almost all of the production staff listed on the encyclopedia page seem to be Japanese as well. It seems to be as much of an anime as Iron Man: Rise of Technovore, Marvel Disk Wars: The Avengers, and all the other Marvel anime, which aren't listed as being U.S. productions.

Also, I think Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher should be linked to Iron Man: Rise of Technovore with some sort of link, since it is produced by the same studio in the same art style, and featuring the same characters (Black Widow and the Punisher were both featured in Iron Man: Rise of Technovore).
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:27 pm Reply with quote
In fact I had had a lengthy discussion with Theron over this matter two months ago.

Calathan wrote:
This news story says that it is made by Madhouse,

I'm afraid that doesn't count. Madhouse has been animating American franchises for a long time.

Calathan wrote:
It seems to be as much of an anime as Iron Man: Rise of Technovore, Marvel Disk Wars: The Avengers, and all the other Marvel anime, which aren't listed as being U.S. productions.

The latter was aired on Japanese TV channels. The former, however, is more similar to Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher, as they were both direct-to-video for North American consumers; AFAIK (correct me if I were wrong) there's no local release for Japanese consumers. And while most American distributors call anything with one-off story a "movie," that definition does not work well on this website.

Furthermore, their Wikipedia pages have no Japanese counterparts, not even a stub exists. While lacking a Wiki page is not a crime, it does not match the typical behavior of Japanese otakudom.

Calathan wrote:
Also, I think Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher should be linked to Iron Man: Rise of Technovore with some sort of link, since it is produced by the same studio in the same art style, and featuring the same characters (Black Widow and the Punisher were both featured in Iron Man: Rise of Technovore).

An omnibus might be a better idea. Thoughts?
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Calathan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:28 am Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
The latter was aired on Japanese TV channels. The former, however, is more similar to Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher, as they were both direct-to-video for North American consumers; AFAIK (correct me if I were wrong) there's no local release for Japanese consumers. And while most American distributors call anything with one-off story a "movie," that definition does not work well on this website.


Iron Man: Rise of Technovore got a Japanese release. Here is the amazon.co.jp page for it. It looks like the Japanese release was one week after the U.S. release. I would still consider that Japanese anime, as it was produced in Japan and intended for a Japanese release (i.e., it shouldn't be listed with a U.S. qualifier, similar to how some things like Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust don't have a U.S. qualifier even though they were released in the U.S. before Japan).

However, I can't find a Japanese release for Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher. I was assuming it was released in Japan because there is a Japanese cast listed for it on the encyclopedia page. If Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher isn't intended to be released in Japan, then I agree that it should stay listed as a U.S. film (but should it be a U.S. OAV instead of a U.S. movie since it was released direct to video?). Sorry for the confusion about that.

dormcat wrote:
Furthermore, their Wikipedia pages have no Japanese counterparts, not even a stub exists. While lacking a Wiki page is not a crime, it does not match the typical behavior of Japanese otakudom.


They just recently got pages on the English Wikipedia after some contentious discussion (which I was a part of). Before that, they were covered as sections of another article. Not having a stand alone article might be more of just an editorial decision rather than reflecting the degree of awareness. It looks like the Japanese Wikipedia covers Iron Man: Rise of Technovore in the main Iron Man article, with a decent sized section listing the cast and crew. However, the only mention of Avengers Confidential: Black Widow and Punisher that I could find was one line in the main Black Widow article, which links to the English Wikipedia article. I think the relative degree of coverage reflects that Japanese fans are aware of Rise of Technovore but not really aware of Avengers Confidential.

dormcat wrote:
An omnibus might be a better idea. Thoughts?


I think an omnibus entry for the Marvel anime and anything related to them in the encyclopedia would probably be a good idea.
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mdo7
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:37 am Reply with quote
@Dormcat: I'm afraid I have to agreed with Calathan. I think Avengers Confidential should be considered as anime. I mean I understand the debate/issue on what's "true anime" and what's not anime. But we've already seen co-productions which have now been labeled as anime, and we've already seen some of western animations (from the 80's and before) that had help (or co-produced) from Japan have now been considered and acknowledged as anime (ie: Little Nemo, Transformers G1, Mighty Orbots, and maybe half of Rankin-Bass Animation). Batman: Gotham Knight is already labeled as anime, the same for Marvel anime so why label those as anime and make Avengers Confidential not labeled as anime.

Calathan brought up enough evidence to back up the Avengers Confidential as anime. Also if Batman: Gotham Knight and Marvel Anime can be considered as anime, why not Avengers Confidential??

So following this logic, should Afro Samurai not be considered as anime because it was broadcasted first in USA, then Japan later. Also Afro Samurai doesn't have a Japanese dub when it was shown and released in Japan.
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:22 pm Reply with quote
Sorry that I replied late; got something else kept me away from keyboard.

Calathan wrote:
Iron Man: Rise of Technovore got a Japanese release. Here is the amazon.co.jp page for it.

Ah, thanks. I couldn't find it because I made a mistake with the keyword. Embarassed

Calathan wrote:
However, I can't find a Japanese release for Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher. I was assuming it was released in Japan because there is a Japanese cast listed for it on the encyclopedia page. If Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher isn't intended to be released in Japan, then I agree that it should stay listed as a U.S. film (but should it be a U.S. OAV instead of a U.S. movie since it was released direct to video?). Sorry for the confusion about that.

I'm thinking of changing it to "U.S. OAV" but not 100% sure yet. Calling and/or releasing an OAV as a "movie" was a very common practice in the early days of NA licensees.

Calathan wrote:
I think an omnibus entry for the Marvel anime and anything related to them in the encyclopedia would probably be a good idea.

However, I have limited knowledge on Marvel titles. I combed though Madhouse and found the following:

Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher
Batman: Gotham Knight
Beyond
Blade
Highlander: The Search for Vengeance
Iron Man
Iron Man: Rise of Technovore
Matriculated
Program
Street Fighter
Supernatural: The Anime Series
Wolverine
World Record
X-Men

Any missing or unfitting title?

mdo7 wrote:
Batman: Gotham Knight is already labeled as anime, the same for Marvel anime so why label those as anime and make Avengers Confidential not labeled as anime.

I haven't looked into Batman: Gotham Knight and related titles until today; I'll look into the production history of each and every one of them (this may take some time) and make appropriate revisions if necessary.

A small tip: You might achieve something just the opposite.

mdo7 wrote:
So following this logic, should Afro Samurai not be considered as anime because it was broadcasted first in USA, then Japan later. Also Afro Samurai doesn't have a Japanese dub when it was shown and released in Japan.

Many recent Hollywood movies are premiered outside United States first so such "logic" does not exist.
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mdo7
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:35 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:

A small tip: You might achieve something just the opposite.


Or I might bring an end to a long war about what is anime when it comes to international co-productions. Laughing

Quote:
mdo7 wrote:
So following this logic, should Afro Samurai not be considered as anime because it was broadcasted first in USA, then Japan later. Also Afro Samurai doesn't have a Japanese dub when it was shown and released in Japan.

Many recent Hollywood movies are premiered outside United States first so such "logic" does not exist.


not to go off topic, but it still a Hollywood movie regardless where it premiere first, and live-action is different from animation so my logic still hold. Also I've seen a Hollywood movie where the language is not English like Mishima and Letters from Iwo Jima, and yet it still considered Hollywood films when both of them aren't in English. So premiering outside of USA doesn't still make it not Hollywood (I can say the same for other cinema regardless what country it comes from). I mean if a Korean film was released in US, China, and Japan first then Korea 2 months later, does that mean it's no longer a Korean film? No, it still a Korean film because it was made in Korea.
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:56 pm Reply with quote
mdo7 wrote:
I mean if a Korean film was released in US, China, and Japan first then Korea 2 months later, does that mean it's no longer a Korean film? No, it still a Korean film because it was made in Korea.

IMHO the difference is between "delayed/postponed release" and "no foreseeable scheduled release at all." In the latter case the fine line between "co-production" and "outsourcing" becomes blurred.
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DerekTheRed
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:05 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
Calathan wrote:
I think an omnibus entry for the Marvel anime and anything related to them in the encyclopedia would probably be a good idea.

However, I have limited knowledge on Marvel titles. I combed though Madhouse and found the following:

Any missing or unfitting title?


Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher Marvel
Batman: Gotham Knight DC
Beyond Animatrix
Blade Marvel
Highlander: The Search for Vengeance Standalone title (part of US franchise of live action films and TV and animated TV)
Iron Man Marvel
Iron Man: Rise of Technovore Marvel
Matriculated Animatrix
Program Animatrix
Street Fighter Standalone title (based on video game of same name)
Supernatural: The Anime Series Standalone title (based on US live action TV show of same name)
Wolverine Marvel
World Record Animatrix
X-Men Marvel

I cannot say if the characters in all the various Marvel anime have the same continuity or any contact, but I marked the ones that are in the Marvel Universe.

Missing Titles:

Marvel Disk Wars: The Avengers

Something to consider:
Kyoufu Densetsu - Kaiki! Frankenstein (special)
Dracula: Sovereign of the Damned
Were both apparently based (loosely) on Marvel comics.


Last edited by DerekTheRed on Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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mdo7
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:17 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:

IMHO the difference is between "delayed/postponed release" and "no foreseeable scheduled release at all."


Well what if the film release outside of it's native country first then home country later was intentional?? Does that make any difference to what you describe??

Quote:
In the latter case the fine line between "co-production" and "outsourcing" becomes blurred.


Not 100% blurred, I can tell the difference between co-productions and outsourcing.

Little Nemo is considered as anime because it was directed by a Japanese and American team. It was aimed at American audience but yet it came out first in Japan, and the planning and production was done by both American and Japanese. I can say the same for Afro Samurai.

For outsourcing, many of the anime that is done in Japan has been outsourced to Korea and China, so does that mean it's no longer anime if it's outsource to other Asian countries?? Is Deathnote no longer an anime because the outsourcing is done by China and South Korea??
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Calathan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:10 pm Reply with quote
Would the scope of the omnibus entry be Madhouse's Marvel anime, or all Marvel anime and manga? Anyway, I agree with the titles that DerekTheRed has listed as being from Marvel, i.e.:

Blade
Iron Man
Wolverine
X-Men
Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher
Iron Man: Rise of Technovore
Marvel Disk Wars: The Avengers
Dracula: Sovereign of the Damned (this is definitely adapted from a Marvel comic)
Kyoufu Densetsu - Kaiki! Frankenstein (This was at least partially based on a Marvel comic, though I'm not certain to what degree it is based on the comic).

If the entry is intended is intended to include all Marvel titles, then I think the following should also be included:

X-Men (U.S. comic) (I'm not really sure why this is in the encyclopedia)
Spider-Man (manga)
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:56 pm Reply with quote
A lot of 100% Japanese anime movies get premiers outside Japan for promotional reasons.
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mdo7
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:04 pm Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
A lot of 100% Japanese anime movies get premiers outside Japan for promotional reasons.


It depends on if a certain anime is targeted to that particular audience rather then the Japanese. As I seen, I've seen anime film being shown outside of Japan first (USA, South Korea, etc...) depend on the anime being popular in another area.
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:08 pm Reply with quote
Nothing to do with it. They want to be able to promote the films at home with awards and accolades so they do a few screenings at film festivals overseas first.
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mdo7
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:10 pm Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
Nothing to do with it. They want to be able to promote the films at home with awards and accolades so they do a few screenings at film festivals overseas first.


Yes I know, but I do know anime films and TV series that are broadcast or shown outside of Japan first before it broadcast in Japan.
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molibdaenum



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:58 pm Reply with quote
Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher is exactly the same as Iron Man: Rise of Technovore. If that one is an anime, this one is too. The only difference is that Sony still hasn't set a release date for the former title in Japan.

Some things to consider:
1) Marvel itself has called Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher an anime: Go behind-the-scenes of the feature length anime film with a look at lineart for your favorite heroes!

2) This isn't an outsourced work, like The legend of Korra, or The Boondocks. Here, even the screenwriter of the film is Japanese; and SPEJ and MADHOUSE also invested in the film and are part of the Production Committee: "Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher" was directed by Kenichi Shimizu, with a story by Marjorie Liu and screenplay by Mitsutaka Hirota. It was produced by Marvel, Sony Pictures Entertainment (Japan) Inc. and Madhouse Inc.

3) The film has a Japanese audio track [source], it was even discussed on ANN Forums [here]; so we can argue that Japanese are indeed a target audience in mind.

In my opinion, the ANN Encyclopedia title of this work should be Avengers Confidential: Black Widow & Punisher (OAV).
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