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DerekL1963 wrote:

Half the anime airing per season also means half the DVD's, figures, scrolls, and other goods sold (which make up a huge portion of the revenue stream, and why they're so expensive) - which means half the revenue.

Where exactly is the extra money going to come from to pay the animators more?

With half the anime, there would be more episodes (we could have more 20-24 episode anime, maybe 30-36 if we're lucky) which means more disc volumes of said anime, and more merchandise and CDs (as with more episodes come more OP and ED themes). Also, it's an opportunity to cut the fat (bad LN adaptations for example) and focus on what's good and market it well and provide enough merchandise.

{Please don't over-quote. I edited your post and removed the excess quoting for you. Thanks. ~ Psycho 101}

SaitoHajime101 wrote:

Aqua Teen proves that with a low budget they can still produce something that can hit a popularity ride with the demographic they are working with. Doesn't take high-end animation to do it, just the right mixture of several things to make the best juice.

It’s humor and absurdness is what makes ATHF work, even with its extremely low end animation. But that would not work with most animation.

Hoppy800 wrote:

With half the anime, there would be more episodes (we could have more 20-24 episode anime, maybe 30-36 if we're lucky) which means more disc volumes of said anime, and more merchandise and CDs (as with more episodes come more OP and ED themes). Also, it's an opportunity to cut the fat (bad LN adaptations for example) and focus on what's good and market it well and provide enough merchandise.

This is not true. It will lead to massive unemployment in the animation industry, because you are cutting out half of all the anime productions. If you are going to chop anime productions, then you are also chopping the jobs that would work on those productions.
Also, as has been said many a time, anime survives because of the Japanese fan’s obsessive willingness to spend exorbitant amounts (hundreds of dollars per series/season) for anime. That is the only reason why anime is still around like it is. In order to pay increased wages, costs would have to go up even more.

@ Hoppy800:

Unfortunately, it's not a system of a few companies colluding with each other deciding what to make and how often; each anime is a temporary alliance of disparate companies, many of whom simply have an interest in getting their fingers in as many pies as they can in order to find that one show that'll make it all worth it. There are umpteen dozen animation studios all competing for contracts from these fleeting cooperations, bidding the price level down. It's not something that's geared to slow down and, if someone in the process balks, they can almost always be replaced by someone else.

DaisakuKusama wrote:

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the so-called "Tezuka Curse," but it's become an unfortunate norm in the animation industry. As somebody already mentioned, Japan has been outsourcing to Korea for years, and have been outsourcing to China as well, simply to keep costs down. In a perfect world, all of these uniquely talented individuals would be paid what they're worth. How I wish it were so.

Just want to add what "Tezuka Curse" is, basically Osamu Tezuka set production cost of TV animation so low that it became the industry norm. Even today it's not certain that his cost undercutting is completely true or not, but Tezuka was not a good business manager and he only had tons of passion to make "home-made" animation.

Although Tezuka is blamed most of times for current low budget woes, root cause is much deeper than his poor business management. During his time, whole Japanese animation industry went through strikes and overbudget. Toei Animation, Mushi Production, Tatsunoko, Eiken, and TMS all underestimated labor cost and they had to change their system to accommodate how much TV stations are willing to pay. Eventually such system passed down to future companies. Even though TV stations are not sole sponsor of animation now, other sponsors are just as interested in having cost down.

Here is the reference which I got information from:

"Original Sin called Animation"(Japanese PDF)
http://www.godo-shuppan.co.jp/img/kokai/kaisetsu_kokai.pdf

reanimator wrote:

DaisakuKusama wrote:

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the so-called "Tezuka Curse," but it's become an unfortunate norm in the animation industry. As somebody already mentioned, Japan has been outsourcing to Korea for years, and have been outsourcing to China as well, simply to keep costs down. In a perfect world, all of these uniquely talented individuals would be paid what they're worth. How I wish it were so.

Just want to add what "Tezuka Curse" is, basically Osamu Tezuka set production cost of TV animation so low that it became the industry norm. Even today it's not certain that his cost undercutting is completely true or not, but Tezuka was not a good business manager and he only had tons of passion to make "home-made" animation.

Thank you for the clarification. I was not familiar with the Tezuka Curse, and that post confused me. I thought it was about outsourcing and that it concerned something I didn't know about Osamu Tezuka.

Even now, you see startup companies and crowdfunding campaigns balloon way over-budget (and oftentimes, their first projects are delayed by years), so it's definitely nothing new. Projects only go on schedule when the people running it are all experienced and on the same page.

leafy sea dragon wrote:

reanimator wrote:

Just want to add what "Tezuka Curse" is, basically Osamu Tezuka set production cost of TV animation so low that it became the industry norm. Even today it's not certain that his cost undercutting is completely true or not, but Tezuka was not a good business manager and he only had tons of passion to make "home-made" animation.

Thank you for the clarification. I was not familiar with the Tezuka Curse, and that post confused me. I thought it was about outsourcing and that it concerned something I didn't know about Osamu Tezuka.

Even now, you see startup companies and crowdfunding campaigns balloon way over-budget (and oftentimes, their first projects are delayed by years), so it's definitely nothing new. Projects only go on schedule when the people running it are all experienced and on the same page.

Right. People who want to run passion project tend to underestimate the cost.

Quote:

"We didn't know how much it costs per production. It was common for a show with acquired budget of 5 to 6 million yen wound up costing 8 to 9 million yen for production." as former Mushi Pro's executive secretary, now retired Sunrise President Eiji Yamaura recalls that time.

Contrary to what some people have said on this thread, outsourcing already happened in late 60's after Japanese animation companies went through several labor disputes.

Buzz201 wrote:

It's a shame, but paying peanuts is probably the only way for the system to work.

Or those in charge of producing series could look into alternative ways of raising funds.

Like Kickstarter.

I would like to see more studios turn to crowdfunding as a way of helping animators make liveable wages. Most of the anime projects animated by Japanese studios and produced by Japan have been successful on Kickstarter. While I don't think KS is a viable way of raising all the funds necessary to produce a series, I do think it's a good way to offset some of the cost. The awards given out could be artwork from the series once its finished its production, so the studio could eliminate the cost of storage by simply sending it out. Higher tiers could include original sketches from the character designer.

mangamuscle wrote:

Quote:

Animators in the US typically aren't rich, but do eke out a decent middle class existence

I do not think this is true at all. I have no doubt that voice actors, story writers, musicians, background, cgi, music & video editors earn a fine salary in the USA animation industry. But I do not think animators (key animators and inbetweeners, those that do what we recognize as traditional animation and would normally represent most of the production cost) really live on the USA. Avatar the last airbender was animated by Dr Movie. The Simpsons is also animated in Korea. Zim the Invader and The Fairly OddParents are suspect since they do not name even one key animator or inbetweener. If my memory is correct, Batman the animated series was done in china.

So it is quite misguided to say that poor asian animators do not have the salaries of non existent american animators. It would be more correct to say that thanks to asian animation sweatshops, salaries can be higher this side of the pond for the rest of the production team.

Of course, I would be glad to be wrong, maybe ANN can interview some of those american key animators that work on american tv series and make those nice salaries.

*poof*

I agree with you that many, many, many shows are farmed out to Asian companies for peanuts.

However, there are shows that are farmed out to Canada, a country with stricter labour laws.

For example, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic has a lot of work, not just animation, done by DHX Media. According to GlassDoor (a site with company reviews from an employment perspective), wages goeth thusly:

Layout Artist: $22-23/ hr

Animator-Contractor- $39-$42 000 yearly

Production Coordinator-Monthly Contractor- $3-4 000 monthly

It doesn't make up for Asian animators being paid next to nothing but North America still has some animators doing mainstream work here.

Hoppy800 wrote:

DerekL1963 wrote:

Hoppy800 wrote:

That's why I've said before, that they could get paid better and do better work if the number of anime airing each season is cut in half.

Half the anime airing per season also means half the DVD's, figures, scrolls, and other goods sold (which make up a huge portion of the revenue stream, and why they're so expensive) - which means half the revenue.

Where exactly is the extra money going to come from to pay the animators more?

With half the anime, there would be more episodes (we could have more 20-24 episode anime, maybe 30-36 if we're lucky) which means more disc volumes of said anime, and more merchandise and CDs (as with more episodes come more OP and ED themes). Also, it's an opportunity to cut the fat (bad LN adaptations for example) and focus on what's good and market it well and provide enough merchandise.

0.o No offense, but did you actually do the math here? If you have twenty shows airing in a season (under your proposed system) then you only have twenty shows worth of disks. There's only thirteen weeks in a season, and whether a given season holds one cour or is the first or second of a two cour show is irrelevant - there's only thirteen weeks worth of twenty shows.

That's half of the current system, which is thirteen weeks worth of forty odd shows.

In the same manner, cast size (and hence the number of figures available) isn't tightly bound to the length of the show... half the shows per season likely means half the figures per season.

Etc... etc...

I could go on with the dismal math, but no matter how you slice it halving the number of shows means (more or less) halving the revenue. Period.

Polycell wrote:

@ Hoppy800:

Unfortunately, it's not a system of a few companies colluding with each other deciding what to make and how often; each anime is a temporary alliance of disparate companies, many of whom simply have an interest in getting their fingers in as many pies as they can in order to find that one show that'll make it all worth it.

That's a *huge* factor that Hoppy misses... "it's an opportunity to cut the fat (bad LN adaptations for example)" made me practically laugh out loud - nobody sets out to make a "bad" adaptation, and it's pretty much impossible to predict in advance what show will turn out "good" or "bad". (Let alone "popular" or "unpopular".)

The same goes for marketing, there's no magic formula that will function once a reduced number of shows are available to increase the number of hits. It's a crap shoot, plain and simple.

Cutiebunny wrote:

Buzz201 wrote:

It's a shame, but paying peanuts is probably the only way for the system to work.

Or those in charge of producing series could look into alternative ways of raising funds.

Like Kickstarter.

I would like to see more studios turn to crowdfunding as a way of helping animators make liveable wages. Most of the anime projects animated by Japanese studios and produced by Japan have been successful on Kickstarter. While I don't think KS is a viable way of raising all the funds necessary to produce a series, I do think it's a good way to offset some of the cost. The awards given out could be artwork from the series once its finished its production, so the studio could eliminate the cost of storage by simply sending it out. Higher tiers could include original sketches from the character designer.

Ah I see your hardcore collector mentality kicking in gear. Gotta get your hands on those precious artworks, right?

As you know, some studios have been gave away production arts for years as a part of promotional events. Studio 4C gave away Berserk movie production artworks when it premiered in the U.S.

Crowdfunded anime like Kick Heart gave away production drawings so it's not a new concept.

Giving away production art depends on copyright owners. Some copyright owners do find value in animation artworks so they'll keep them for future displays and publications. Recently there have been a lot of animation artwork pop up gallery shows happening in Japan so it'll be awhile for mass distribution. Even some key animators are holding onto their drawings for their dojinshi.

From what I heard and read, Japanese studios are slowly making transition to digital drawing, so eventually good ol' paper method will phase out. (thanks, Wacom)

I think you should make friends with Japanese production people and see if you can bribe them for artworks instead of going through auctions and middlemen for few sheets of paper.

leafy sea dragon wrote:

reanimator wrote:

DaisakuKusama wrote:

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the so-called "Tezuka Curse," but it's become an unfortunate norm in the animation industry. As somebody already mentioned, Japan has been outsourcing to Korea for years, and have been outsourcing to China as well, simply to keep costs down. In a perfect world, all of these uniquely talented individuals would be paid what they're worth. How I wish it were so.

Just want to add what "Tezuka Curse" is, basically Osamu Tezuka set production cost of TV animation so low that it became the industry norm. Even today it's not certain that his cost undercutting is completely true or not, but Tezuka was not a good business manager and he only had tons of passion to make "home-made" animation.

Thank you for the clarification. I was not familiar with the Tezuka Curse, and that post confused me. I thought it was about outsourcing and that it concerned something I didn't know about Osamu Tezuka.

I was going to say Thank You, but you beat me to it, leafy sea dragon! Sorry I was unclear or not more specific. I probably would have been confused also if I'd never heard of it. My bad (and Thank You, reanimator!).

The rather scary possibility in all this is that anime as we know it may simply not be financially feasible in the long run. Right now it is getting by pretty well but only by grossly underpaying the people that make it. And even putting aside morality, that just doesn't seem like a situation that can go on forever. Sooner or later animators are gonna either demand better treatment and wages, move on to other fields, or just plain retire. And it is going to get increasingly hard to replace them when they do. That money has to come from somewhere though. You can't allow costs to sharply rise if revenue stays the same. Not with the kind of razor thin profit margins anime offers. And of course there's the other elephant in the room: Anime is already in a place where it makes most of its money by exorbitantly charging a tiny niche of hardcore customers. That seems highly unsustainable to begin with and at the very least it offers little room for growth. I don't know where that leaves anime though. I mean, I don't want to be all doom and gloom. This is all probably long term stuff. But yeah, you kinda can't help but look at the anime industry and wonder if it isn't just a fundamentally problematic business model sometimes. Adult oriented animation simply seems to cost (at least in terms of labor) far more to produce than it generates in revenue.

Cutiebunny wrote:

Buzz201 wrote:

It's a shame, but paying peanuts is probably the only way for the system to work.

Or those in charge of producing series could look into alternative ways of raising funds.

Like Kickstarter.

I really wouldn't count on this as a solution. People are big on Kickstarter these days but they need to understand what it actually does and what it doesn't do. What it does do is two things: Firstly, it allows the producers of a thing to get the money they need up front. The end consumers themselves fund initial production rather than simply recouping it later via sales. Secondly, it serves as a way of letting niche markets demonstrate their financial significance. Not sure if there is enough of a demand for [thing] to offset the cost of making it? Kickstarter allows potential supporters of [thing] to demonstrate in no uncertain terms that there indeed is sufficient demand. These are both very good things that serve to significantly diminish financial risk and inertia thus allowing a lot of products to be made that otherwise wouldn't be.

Here's the problem though. What Kickstarter doesn't do is radically change the underlying demand for a product in a significant way. It may reveal demand that producers are skeptical of and I suppose it can help cut down on some bureaucracy realated costs and wring a last few dollars out of your most avid supporters. By and large though the key truth behind any successful Kickstarter is always that there is indeed sufficient demand for the product to offset its cost. The root problem with anime though is just that this may not be the case. If (assuming fair wages and work conditions) anime costs [x] amount to produce then it needs to generate at least [x] in revenue. If it doesn't...well, it doesn't really matter how you fund it. Either by the traditional investment model or via crowd funding, there just aren't enough people who want that product to justify making it.

reanimator wrote:

Ah I see your hardcore collector mentality kicking in gear. Gotta get your hands on those precious artworks, right?

I have enough stuff. Thanks. But I always try to think about others, both those who are already in the hobby and those that have not yet learned that artwork exists for their favorite shows and much of it is easily affordable (say, $20 and under). Many of us collectors like to share our appreciation of the hobby with others, not just hoard as much artwork as we possibly can. It's how you keep a hobby alive.

This is why I think offering "used" douga/genga/backgrounds would be a fantastic idea; What the studio and its artists label as junk is something that a possible collector would value.

Quote:

From what I heard and read, Japanese studios are slowly making transition to digital drawing, so eventually good ol' paper method will phase out. (thanks, Wacom)

There will still be a demand for artwork from popular series, which could come about in the form of having artists draw sketches on paper for those that donate. Not everyone is satisfied with a mass produced poster.

Quote:

I think you should make friends with Japanese production people and see if you can bribe them for artworks instead of going through auctions and middlemen for few sheets of paper.

Who says I haven't Very Happy

Edit:

ikillchicken wrote:

What Kickstarter doesn't do is radically change the underlying demand for a product in a significant way.

It doesn't need to. What I'm asking is more of a general fundraising for an animation studio rather than something that is focused on one particular production. A studio could make it seasonal by running a crowdfunding campaign every couple of months. The studio could state that the funds will solely go to improve the salaries of their animators. Not only would this solve the "I want to give money to support animators but don't want it all to be swallowed up by middlemen" people, but it may help to improve the quality of artwork being produced because the studio is able to pay better wages to retain its talent.

Obviously, there would be no way to enforce that the money actually did go to the animators themselves, but I'd like to hope that, through the use of future campaigns and/or social media, those animators who have benefitted could post about it.

Cutiebunny wrote:

ikillchicken wrote:

What Kickstarter doesn't do is radically change the underlying demand for a product in a significant way.

It doesn't need to. What I'm asking is more of a general fundraising for an animation studio rather than something that is focused on one particular production. A studio could make it seasonal by running a crowdfunding campaign every couple of months. The studio could state that the funds will solely go to improve the salaries of their animators.

Kickstarter wouldn't allow such a campaign - you have to have a specific project and plan. (Along with the more general - "that's not how crowdfunding works".)

And even if they would, I doubt many anime fans (who already shell out money for streams and goods) would contribute... Maybe the first couple of rounds, but "dangit, they're asking for money again?" would set in pretty quickly. Even faster if the studio produces a bomb or anything that causes the fan to go "WTF are they thinking?".

^ Indiegogo permitted a campaign designed to raise funds to buy a dorm for animators. I fail to see how "improving the wages of a group of animators" really differs from "supplementing the rent for 2 animators". And really, if that's the way it would have to be done, then create another dorm project, or even something as simple as buying a pizza party for them. Kickstarter let some guy raise funds to make a potato salad, so, a pizza party should be doable.

You seem to think that I'm hoping that hundreds of thousands of dollars will be donated on a quarterly basis, or even once. Even a couple hundred dollars raised that could be spent on something as insignificant as a catered dinner to improve morale would be substantially better than what's being done now. At least then, anime fans who protest that they're unable to support animators could put their money where their mouth is, and animators would see first hand that there are people there that appreciate what they do. Most inbetween animators have absolutely no idea how appreciated they are outside of work. The two I met at Animazement this year, both of whom benefitted from the Indiegogo campaign, were blown away by the attendee support they received. So while these attendees weren't showering them with gifts (though some did), seeing and understanding that there people that appreciate the hard work they do was very important for both men.

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